Smart and stressfull, or average and "not fullfuilled&q
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Mister_s




Posts: 19863

PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 17:14    Post subject: Smart and stressfull, or average and "not fullfuilled&q
I've got a "WTF is the meaning of life" question for you guys, I'd like to see how people think. First a very brief personal piece about me (I don't liek to indulge too much on the internetz), so you all know what this is about. I attend a medical university (hospital really) and I am currently doing my internship (research oriented). Now before this all was fun and well, going to the uni, being a student and whatnot. The internship however makes me think about wtf I'm doing. There are no regular hours (I make 8-11 hour days), you're constantly supposed to come up with brilliant ideas, there is no rest in the weekends, you're supposed to be interested even in the most boring research projects ever thought up by man and there are five goddam meetings every week at the weirdest hours. Now I asked around, all labs in this hospital (I assume in all academic hospitals) is the same. Keep in mind I am only a student here, PhDs and post-docs even stay overnight because their projects actually matter. I really have no desire to be like that when I get a job. Sitting in the lab at 7PM on a Friday and thinking "WTF are these people doing, don't they have lives?" isn't fun.

This is not a "oh my life is so hard, I hate it" thread. I take life as it is, I'm cynical and a bit pessimistic. Is it weird to think "I'd like to a bit dumber and be a regular Joe"? I know I am supposed to be all fullfilled and shit, but I don't have that.

So the purpose of this thread. Would you guys rather be a high achiever and work day and night, or would you be of average intelligence (not calling anyone stupid) and be a regular Joe?
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fisk




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PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 17:45    Post subject:
I take Option 3,

Get a good education and start something yourself.


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Mister_s




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PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 17:53    Post subject:
And what would you start? Not everyone is made for entrepreneurship and starting something up is very, very hard.
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bushwacka




Posts: 2990
Location: Vienna
PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 18:01    Post subject:
simple question: do you like what you're doing/find it interesting/have fun doing it?

i studied molecular biology, and it's more or less the same as you described your field. threw the towel after a while, especially after getting a glimpse of the private lives most of the guys in the labs at my uni led (or rather, what's left of their lives Laughing )

...and now i'm a private tutor for absurd rates per hour (teaching the kids of people in rather high positions here in this country Very Happy ), putting my brain to work at didactic qualities instead and still have a few ties to research @uni. a step down? some people (ex colleagues and my parents) would certainly call it that. my bank account, having a goddamn life and not being burnt out say otherwise tho.

Quote:
This is not a "oh my life is so hard, I hate it" thread. I take life as it is, I'm cynical and a bit pessimistic. Is it weird to think "I'd like to a bit dumber and be a regular Joe"? I know I am supposed to be all fullfilled and shit, but I don't have that.

oh i had the exact same thoughts while at the uni, but i think that's just a normal brain reaction when you're fed up/burnt out.

but to answer your original question, i'd always go with being a high achiever - but only if you like what you're doing and there's some sort of light at the end of the tunnel.
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dsergei




Posts: 4055
Location: Moscow, Russia
PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 18:09    Post subject:
I'm not sure what intelligence has to do with your situation. Sense of fulfillment depends solely on whether you enjoy either the process or the result.

I am a lawyer and used to do crazy hours while researching and prepping for cases. For me the payoff (crushing people in court Very Happy ) is worth the tedium and hours required. I know some people that enjoy the research itself - they love comming up with ideas and strategies even if they don't get to actually put them to work.

It seems like you don't enjoy what you are doing at the moment. Can you look into other options for employement in medicine otehr than research? Maybe you need the thrill of ER, or maybe you'd like more interaction with people in a clinic?
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fisk




Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 18:26    Post subject:
Mister_s wrote:
And what would you start? Not everyone is made for entrepreneurship and starting something up is very, very hard.


Anyone CAN start something, it is just that most oftenly since it takes risk, patience and the ability to take responsibility for oneself - people opt out for safety. It isn't hard at all, that is but a lie perpetuated by those who never dared to attempt it.

It will take effort though, but less effort, and less pain than slaving at the whim of another.

But certainly you will ignore this, so many are creatures of comfort. I hope you get this comfort forcibly challenged, that you have to go through some hardship so you take it less for granted and give yourself the gift of taking control of your life.

It is as you say plain foolishness to throw away ones life like that. I hope your question was genuine, but at least accept that there are more than two options.


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Rofl_Mao




Posts: 3187
Location: Nederland
PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 18:27    Post subject: Re: Smart and stressfull, or average and "not fullfuill
Mister_s wrote:
I've got a "WTF is the meaning of life" question for you guys, I'd like to see how people think. First a very brief personal piece about me (I don't liek to indulge too much on the internetz), so you all know what this is about. I attend a medical university (hospital really) and I am currently doing my internship (research oriented). Now before this all was fun and well, going to the uni, being a student and whatnot. The internship however makes me think about wtf I'm doing. There are no regular hours (I make 8-11 hour days), you're constantly supposed to come up with brilliant ideas, there is no rest in the weekends, you're supposed to be interested even in the most boring research projects ever thought up by man and there are five goddam meetings every week at the weirdest hours. Now I asked around, all labs in this hospital (I assume in all academic hospitals) is the same. Keep in mind I am only a student here, PhDs and post-docs even stay overnight because their projects actually matter. I really have no desire to be like that when I get a job. Sitting in the lab at 7PM on a Friday and thinking "WTF are these people doing, don't they have lives?" isn't fun.

This is not a "oh my life is so hard, I hate it" thread. I take life as it is, I'm cynical and a bit pessimistic. Is it weird to think "I'd like to a bit dumber and be a regular Joe"? I know I am supposed to be all fullfilled and shit, but I don't have that.

So the purpose of this thread. Would you guys rather be a high achiever and work day and night, or would you be of average intelligence (not calling anyone stupid) and be a regular Joe?


Sounds like a tough life. I remember having a roommate studying pharmacy, he always worked very long too. He went a little nuts in the beginning and had to take a vacation to recuperate . But then everything went super again, but things are different for you if I understand correctly.

Working a lot of hours isn't necessarily a big deal if you are fascinated by your work. I think most of your coworkers are -- or maybe you should ask them! So if things don't take a turn for the better maybe you should look for something which is more suited to you personally. Not every job is suited to your character, situation, etc. Switching jobs can be very difficult of course, so if you can find some advice or counseling that may be very useful. But the reward is huge, a job you enjoy. That means happiness for life.


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deelix
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PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 18:38    Post subject:
I only ambision is to get 100k gamerscore, after that my life makes no sense Sad
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Mchart




Posts: 7314

PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 18:44    Post subject:
Everyone finds their own way in life. You gotta find out what works best for you. I work 18 hour days on a regular basis, but it's doing stuff I love like SCUBA, fitness, etc.. So it's hard work, but I enjoy it.
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Lutzifer
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PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 19:12    Post subject:
research can be fucked like that. If you want to go through the hoops of academia you ll have to find a field of research that really interests you. Otherwise it ll be stressful and fucked up. And not all places are like that, at least around here. And if it does not satisfy you, try looking for a different internship. It ll make you happier in the long-run
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garus
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PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 19:39    Post subject:
snip


Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:54; edited 1 time in total
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fisk




Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 19:42    Post subject:
garus wrote:
fisk wrote:
I take Option 3,

Get a good education and start something yourself.


Education is hardly worth anything these days. It's all about what you learn by yourself.


Is that what the uneducated tell themselves to protect their ego? What a surprise.


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garus
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PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 19:44    Post subject:
snip


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deelix
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Posts: 32062
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PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 19:44    Post subject:
garus wrote:
fisk wrote:
I take Option 3,

Get a good education and start something yourself.


Education is hardly worth anything these days. It's all about what you learn by yourself.
yeah, its only paper tbh. Its easier to get a job with higher edu. on the CV tho.
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fisk




Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 20:37    Post subject:
garus wrote:

Is that what educated, unemployed people tell themselves? I haven't even finished studies and I already have shitload of job offers.

I don't deny it opens some doors, but it's not what makes you good in actual job.


Unemployed? I run a college design program and work as a teacher in a private IT-school. I wouldn't be doing this without an extensive education. Nor would anyone else. You can't become a surgeon without an education, you can't become a professional in many fields without a university education. Good luck working as an engineer without extensive studies. Sure there are decently paid jobs for those who are hard workers, I'm not saying there isn't. But saying that "education is hardly worth anything" is complete and utter bullshit.

You couldn't finish school so what the do you know about what education is worth?

Besides, a lot of education gives you a solid ground for critical thinking, reason and argument. Without my education I would not be where I am today. I would not be making what I'm making today, and I would not feel as content with myself if I didn't spend all those years getting through books, attending seminars and discussing with a lot of people + learning what it is to work in science & as a researcher and doing field studies/writing reports and master thesises.

I don't deny that experience and using ones head outside of the school frame is necessary too. I've been running my own business (in media) too and the experience from working in practice with branding, contacting customers, being your own small business accountant, and standing on your own are experiences I don't count any less, but it is with the combination of the both, plus having to go through a lot of rough fucking shit both with economy and private life I credit having a creative mind grounded in problem solving drawing from both education and experience to find solutions both in private, in business and working for others.

I can't stand people who go around saying stuff like "education is unimportant", they don't know that because they don't have an education. They think that because they were able to make money without an education that somehow makes education redundant. Well guess what, making money isn't hard. Getting a job isn't hard, if you think that is all that education is, then there you have it. You don't know what you're talking about.

Most of us learn from some kind of school, or from someone that did attend a school.


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Rofl_Mao




Posts: 3187
Location: Nederland
PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 20:39    Post subject:
garus wrote:
fisk wrote:
garus wrote:


Education is hardly worth anything these days. It's all about what you learn by yourself.


Is that what the uneducated tell themselves to protect their ego? What a surprise.


Is that what educated, unemployed people tell themselves? I haven't even finished studies and I already have shitload of job offers.

I don't deny it opens some doors, but it's not what makes you good in actual job.


A lot of entrepreneurs appear to be school drop-outs. (Yes, even Steve Jobs. Or should I say "especially" lol). They can see a shortcut to being productive in society. So it's little use staying in school if you see what some people need and how you can fulfill those needs. That's a quick way to doing what you're good at... and earning money, yes.

I remember a story I saw on TV. A 15 year old school kid (low level education) that was bored in school. He noticed farmers in his area all had large piles of manure and didn't really know how to get rid of it. So the kid started to look for people that were interested in buying the manure. And there were a lot of them. They didn't know where to find the manure however. So the kid started to connect farmers with spare shit and shit buyers. And it turned out to be a gold mine. Phone was ringing all day, he employed his mother as assistant and driver of his new Mercedes.

Simple job, ingenious idea, a lot of happy people and yes, a lot of money. No PhD stuff but he's making a lot of people's lives easier.


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Mchart




Posts: 7314

PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 21:02    Post subject:
Job experiance will trump education. Education is still important though.

Obviously, someone who works in the business of education will say that education is the most important thing.

For most of us, it's just getting it over with so you get that silly piece of paper saying you've done it.
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dingo_d
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PostPosted: Sun, 17th Jul 2011 22:42    Post subject:
I guess that's the life of a scientist. But if you like it than you'll have no problem working like that. But if you don't feel it's something that you'd like to do for the rest of your life than you should consider changing your carrier a bit.

Maybe going from research field to something more practical?

There is nothing worse than being stuck in a job that you hate...


"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
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chiv wrote:
thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found.

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fisk




Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 01:49    Post subject:
Mchart wrote:
Job experiance will trump education. Education is still important though.


So how do you get job experience within a branch that won't hire anyone who doesn't have an education?

Quote:

Obviously, someone who works in the business of education will say that education is the most important thing.


Who is saying it is the most important thing? Can you construct fewer strawman fallacies on these forums, please?

Quote:

For most of us, it's just getting it over with so you get that silly piece of paper saying you've done it.


Listen, I understand that you feel a lot of things around the subject. I get it, probably you feel as if everyone that had an education are acting like they're better than you, and now you want to get back at all of them for being mean. I'm sure your life is fantastic without an education. I don't really care. The thing is, this guy claims that an education doesn't mean a thing, and I resent that. I got involved with education (and started working as a teacher) for the simple reason that I thought there was something wrong with my own high-school experience. I worked, ran my own business and studied at university at the same time, and after I got my degrees I decided that there was a discrepancy from work life and high school. I certainly didn't learn what I needed in high-school to fit the role in work life. So that's something I wanted to change.

Here's the thing though, University studies for me were completely different. I guess a lot of people here haven't attended a university, so I won't go into that. But what I learned in University changed my life man. Science is a pretty fucking awesome thing if you just give it a chance instead of just saying "education sucks, it's just a paper". I get it that some people think they can't do it, or don't have the "head" for it, or feel belittled by it or whatever. The thing is, anyone CAN do it. Some people just have been taught the wrong way, some people who think that education is just a paper probably think that way because that's their experience. And I'm not saying there aren't bad schools out there, or that there are some overrated highly priced educations. But can you accept that there are some places that are the complete opposite?


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Mchart




Posts: 7314

PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 02:12    Post subject:
I never said education sucks. What i'm saying is that work experiance, and knowing people is far more important to most people when it comes to getting a job.

I have a four year degree. I learned a few things, but nothing about it was life changing. What changed my life was the military, and doing stuff that I love. Every person is different. So to you, you may find education more important. For me, I constantly strive to improve my mental, emotional, and physical strength. My 'education' is learning nomenclature of weapon systems, and their different uses. At no point in time did the stuff I forced myself through in college have anything to do with my current job. I don't have a need for higher level math. Nor do I have a need for much science.

Different people take different paths. I can assure you that formal education is the least important factor to many peoples jobs. Being able to prove that you can work your ass off, and that you are reliable means a lot more to most. The education requirements just help you put your foot in the door.
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fisk




Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 05:02    Post subject:
Mchart wrote:
The education requirements just help you put your foot in the door.


I think you, and a lot of other people underestimate the value you get from education. The thing is that never in life do you have such a possibility for intense learning-experience as you do in school. Whether it is high-school, university or whatever. For many people you have nothing else going on that is a major distraction, you have 8 or more hours a day spending time (hopefully) with people who have succeeded at what you want to do, and are able to share their experience and knowledge. For me, that is what school should be. I don't know what it is for everyone else of you, but that's me.

I think you guys take the knowledge granted by schools for granted because it is so integrated in society that you do not think about what places that have no schools are like, or what education does for society. See, I'm annoyed by the fact that some people squander the opportunity to learn from those that know mostly because the underlying factor is that there are a lot of people who walk around thinking they know it all. I meet these people in business, on forums, or just chatting with someone I meet while waiting for a train. These people who believe they have it all figured out, that rant about how science is a bunch of crap, how they don't need to read or study to figure the world out and then go about presenting these ridiculous claims about politics, religion, mathematics, society, psychology or basically any topic that there has been thousands and thousands of years worth of thought and research about - but they have somehow figured it out by themselves.

Now I know there are many fields in which guts, charisma and a hard working spirit will get you anywhere without an education. And that you can, through experience become extremely successful. Absolutely.

The thing is, why would you not want to share that experience? And why would you not spend time writing that down and passing it along, having someone take part of those ideas and those experiences so they can build upon them. And what better place to do it in a place where people have the time to do it, before they have families, children, busy work lives, and self-realization to do? Like in school.


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Mchart




Posts: 7314

PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 05:07    Post subject:
My work days last 48+ hours straight some days.

My school is in the gym learning about better ways to work different muscle groups. Better ways to approach different situations. I do not have the time, nor do I have the desire to learn about stuff that has nothing to do with my job. Beyond the rediculous 'work schedule' of mine, any time off is spent vegitating once working out is done.

And if I need to know how to do something, I learn how to do it.

The only reason why I bothered to get a 4 year degree is simply because the military requires it to become an officer. Thats the only reason I got it.

I don't have it all figured out. Never will.

And I do share my experiance. I share it every day. I share it with a group of people who I trust with my life, and we grow together each day. I've experianced things that a formal education comes nowhere near offering, and i'm sure I haven't experianced some things a formal education offers. Me though, I have more fun going out and doing stuff then sitting down writing on some piece of paper.

This is my school -
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fisk




Posts: 9145
Location: Von Oben
PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 05:27    Post subject:
The thing is, education is about more than you, or me. It is about society in general, but the future of this society in particular. Education is about showcasing where we have come thus far, how we came up with it and presenting analytical tools and ideas on how to interpret it.

The most important thing school has to teach is not knowledge. That kind of school is a part of the past if you ask me. It is about how to analyze it critically and build upon knowledge. Most schools in the past have been about learning specific facts which, while absolutely important in certain stages become less and less necessary when you have instant access to knowledge through information technology. What schools are about today, or what the schools in the forefront are about I should say, is sharing experience and practicing knowledge in a real context.

For example, if students are studying photography, they should spend less time studying the history of photography, learning what year the camera obscura was developed, and more time learning what is necessary in the trades that are available in the field. How to become a part of that trade, and then learning by doing (to paraphraze Dewey).

The problem is that a lot of children today already have this attitude that they know everything even prior to attending school. The problem in certain undeveloped schools, there are teachers who still teach by carbon-copying knowledge into students, teach them to repeat data, but not how to use it, and more importantly... show no correlation between that data and what they could do with it in the real world. The problem is that some students leave school thinking they have a piece of paper, but essentially wasted time in school. Because they did not learn anything practically useful.

Those problems are addressed by what I call an education system. Because what those students experienced, was not education. It was pure information-assimilation.

Naturally there are zones of grey, and some schools do it better, and some do it worse. But that's the crux of what you guys are saying. And I understand why you would be annoyed by that.


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garus
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PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 09:38    Post subject:
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Mister_s




Posts: 19863

PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 16:48    Post subject:
I'll clear some things up. First of all, I do like what I am doing. I'd go for the clinical path if I didn't. Second, I don't mind long workdays, as long as that work ends that day. That's the point. At this level people (professors, group leaders etc.) seem to assume that everyone is overly ambitious and fine with dropping a social life. So my point is that I don't produce something in a factory and be done with it at 5PM. No, I have to read papers, work out data, prepare presentations etc etc. I asked some PhD whether they get paid overtime or not, nope zilch. Apparently research is no place for a 9-to-5 mentality, funny since you get only paid for those hours. One of my group leaders actually said we get all teh social contact we need at the lab. What a dork.

Meh, maybe I should go for the private sector when I finish. I guess I had a totally different view of research. It's filled with fake laughing faces (not saying everyone here is a dick, on the contrary), political games ("who'll be the second author OMGOMG"), ass kissing (luckily not as much in a hospital), bullshit research subjects everyone is supposed to be interested in etc etc etc. I had my pink shades on since I thought I'd be doing research to find out life changing things without having to fuck around with all those political mindgames.

As for experience being more important than a piece of paper, depends on what level you're looking for a job. You won't even be taken seriously here if you don't have a proper masters degree.
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Mchart




Posts: 7314

PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 17:03    Post subject:
lol. If you think the 'private sector' doesn't have fake people, political games, ass kissing, and other bullshit - I hate to break it to you; Thats life.
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dingo_d
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PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 17:06    Post subject:
But that's the life of a scientist. I know that at my uni work never stops. If you have an experiment you need to monitor it. Ppl even have computer control at home so that they can monitor their experiments from home. And theoreticians work holidays, sundays...

That is the life of a scientist. Doing science, until you drop xD

You could go private, the pay should be waaay better than if you're at uni/government funded institute...


"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
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chiv wrote:
thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found.

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manu_xl




Posts: 881

PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 20:31    Post subject:
garus wrote:
fisk wrote:
garus wrote:


Education is hardly worth anything these days. It's all about what you learn by yourself.


Is that what the uneducated tell themselves to protect their ego? What a surprise.


Is that what educated, unemployed people tell themselves? I haven't even finished studies and I already have shitload of job offers.

I don't deny it opens some doors, but it's not what makes you good in actual job.


you have a shitload of job offers 'cause you are cheap on the labour market Wink
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garus
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PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 20:32    Post subject:
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BearishSun




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PostPosted: Mon, 18th Jul 2011 21:07    Post subject:
I like to have the best of both worlds. During weekdays I work over 12h a day, and work takes priority over everything, especially social activities, with maybe one exception per week if friends insist on something.

During weekend my friends take priority and I go out and have fun. For social reasons I also try to work on my looks a bit, which takes about 2h a day (workout and spending some time outdoors); something I wouldn't do if I just concentrated on my work.

I think it's a good balance. If I had to choose I would choose my work, but I think going out and socializing like an "average" guy breaks the monotony really nicely. I have hundreds of crazy memories, dozens of thousands of images and you get to meet plenty of girls - something I feel I would really miss if I concentrated only on work (like a lot of college buddies of mine).
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