|
|
| Page 10 of 11 |
zipfero
Posts: 8938
Location: White Shaft
|
 Posted: Tue, 22nd Feb 2011 18:23 Post subject: |
|
 |
| iNatan wrote: | | Indeed. I can give two examples of this case. Our cellular providers and ISPs, where there is supposedly there is competition but prices are equally high all-around. It needed the ministry of communication to force price lowering and grant licenses for new bodies who guaranteed to offer lower prices. |
Add to this hi-fi and textile as business areas where prixe fixing is rampant
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
|
| Posted: Tue, 22nd Feb 2011 18:24 Post subject: |
|
|
| iNatan wrote: | Preemptive conflict by who? Joe Dumbo Schmoe who couldn't care less who he buys from or the nutcases who see the Trump interview and go "I'll pay ten times more to buy American and not that Chink shieeet!  "?
Legal sanctions and penalization by who? The government is gone, the only sovereign body over the corporation is the corporation. Do you honestly believe now, if Microsoft was to raise a private army and arm itself to take out Apple, it would need any price raises? Or the Tobacco & Alcohol giants? This is naive. If a giant corporation decides to arm itself, especially if backed by a private military "company" (Blackwater, for example), fueled by its own shady interests, there is very little to be done to stop them even now. |
You are correct when it comes to existing conditions and existing corporations, that is why the transition phase into a stateless society has to be a very delicate process.
I was discussing the theory of a stateless society without certain advantages in initial conditions, such as the major corporations of the present currently have.
As for sovereign body in such society, that responsibility would fall into the realm of public consensus and it could be arrived at through discussion in a public forum through the use of delegates, that would voice the concern of specific regions, such public consensus could also be arrived at through tools such as referendum.
Nevertheless the public spending of companies, such as the quality of the services and products being sold would still be regulated by external public institutions, this regulatory institutions would have no official power to apply any sanction directly, but they would publicly expose the wrong doing by this companies and people would stop purchasing their goods and services to them.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
|
| Posted: Tue, 22nd Feb 2011 18:29 Post subject: |
|
|
| iNatan wrote: | | Indeed. I can give two examples of this case. Our cellular providers and ISPs, where there is supposedly there is competition but prices are equally high all-around. It needed the ministry of communication to force price lowering and grant licenses for new bodies who guaranteed to offer lower prices. |
Indeed, but as you know this happens right now already.
But then, in a stateless society would be much easier for you create your company in response to the corrupt monopoly being created by such unions!
And then people would rush in into your service because you were able to offer an equally quality service at a much lower price.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73208
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
|
| Posted: Tue, 22nd Feb 2011 18:53 Post subject: |
|
|
Ah the ever-naive Ronhrin.
It is just so easy to start a vast telecommunication company ready to serve millions with unlimited bandwidth. Just like that, at the snap of a finger and everyone will just hoard in. 
And why would I want to offer significantly lower prices, when I can lower it a little to show false competition, and then over time rise prices again? Again you overlook a significant factor called "human nature" and only look at yourself. People don't mind paying higher prices when they are already signed up to a service, out of laziness. Just because you have the will to jump from one ISP to another, or cellular providers, doesn't mean this happens a lot. This is why such companies are allowed to thrive while small "competitors", while offering better prices, demise over relatively short periods of time.
Ah yes, this is what you call "the transitional phase", where you would have every person reeducated to what you believe and know.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
|
| Posted: Tue, 22nd Feb 2011 19:10 Post subject: |
|
|
| iNatan wrote: | Ah the ever-naive Ronhrin.
It is just so easy to start a vast telecommunication company ready to serve millions with unlimited bandwidth. Just like that, at the snap of a finger and everyone will just hoard in.
And why would I want to offer significantly lower prices, when I can lower it a little to show false competition, and then over time rise prices again? Again you overlook a significant factor called "human nature" and only look at yourself. People don't mind paying higher prices when they are already signed up to a service, out of laziness. Just because you have the will to jump from one ISP to another, or cellular providers, doesn't mean this happens a lot. This is why such companies are allowed to thrive while small "competitors", while offering better prices, demise over relatively short periods of time.
Ah yes, this is what you call "the transitional phase", where you would have every person reeducated to what you believe and know. |
With this I mean that I don't have all the answers, individually, I can to a great extent plausibly answer to most of the answers concerning a stateless society, but not all, it is very likely that somebody else has already divised a mechanism to counter such events from happening, and if nobody didn't it doesn't mean some mechanism cannot be developed to precisely counter that!
Second point is, if ultimately you could never stop monopolies from emerging, how do you justify that the state is the answer, because monopolies do exist right now.
(And this is me agreeing with you that concerning the issues of the formation of monopolies, I just don't know personally how we could prevent them)
But my point still remains, regarding the question that I asked you last Sunday, concerning the issue of taxation and consent.
Consent is the most fundamental attribute of oneself when it comes for the distinction between the legitimacy and illegitimacy of a certain act.
And my point has always been the following, it is my personal opinion that what Anarcho-Capitalism and or Anarcho-Syndicalism offers would indeed be much better than what it is now, but even if it weren't, even if society as a whole was going to be more chaotic than what it is now, it is always illegitimate to construct a society which only survives due to the ever present rejection of individual consent on most aspects of life.
Translating this into practical terms, the State can only exist because it relies on coercive taxation, which might or might not be consentual regarding the individual, and what I try to argue time and time again, is that nothing justifies the perpetuation of a society under a premise that is non consentual by many individuals.
Regardless if you agree or not with this (and I would like to know where do you stand on this), that's my basic point.
I do consider human nature, and the way I have envisioned a stateless society through Anarcho Capitalism I conclude that it would work even with the worst individuals and the worst intentions being present within this society, but even if it didn't, it doesn't justify the rejection of individual consent.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Tue, 22nd Feb 2011 21:09 Post subject: |
|
|
iNatan, you've gotten to the core of Ronhrin's problems. He simply hates human nature.
I bet he's dreaming of a pure mindless world, where everyone is equal by being so stupid not to try to make profit or advance faster in everything than Ronhrin's utopia.
i5 6600k @ 4.3 GHz | MSI z170 Gaming M7 | 32GB Kingston HyperX Fury | 850 Evo 500GB | EVGA 1070 SC | Seasonic X-660 | CM Storm Stryker
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
|
| Posted: Tue, 22nd Feb 2011 21:23 Post subject: |
|
|
| difm wrote: | iNatan, you've gotten to the core of Ronhrin's problems. He simply hates human nature.
I bet he's dreaming of a pure mindless world, where everyone is equal by being so stupid not to try to make profit or advance faster in everything than Ronhrin's utopia. |
How wrong you are.
The core of my point is very simple, I theorize and conceptualize that a stateless society would run better than our current society, and yes, while considering that there are very greedy and evil people out there who would do anything to get what they want.
I will not get into how the rule of law would be applied right now, if you want to discuss it, we can discuss it.
My point is this, regardless of anyone's political views, individual consent being what defines and distinguishes legitimacy from illegitimacy, what I say is very simple, even if in abstraction the society I propose would result in everyone killing each other off, nothing, absolutely and virtually nothing justifies the preemptive rejection of absolute individual consent by the society (which is how the state is able to survive, through coercive taxation).
Society does not exist without the individual, and it is the individual free will and consentual participation that justifies the existence of society, if you need to compromise in any way the individual consent of oneself in order for society to function, then society becomes a unethical and illegitimate construct.
Like I said in a previous page, this is not a discussion of Anarchy Vs the State and the pros and cons of each model, this is a philosophical discussion about the nature and respect of individual consent and free will.
I hope I made myself understood and I would like to hear Leo's reply to this.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dsergei
Posts: 4059
Location: Moscow, Russia
|
| Posted: Tue, 22nd Feb 2011 21:35 Post subject: |
|
|
Doesn't it work both ways though, Ronhrin. People are nothing without society - they simply do not become what we consider people without society. There have been countless examples (real examples, even though it is a popular theme in fiction) of human babies living among animals and then not being able to function properly among people - with not only their social skills but also low level cognitive functions inhibited by lack of interaction with other humans.
Therefore one might say that there is no such thing as "individual consent". Your very values and beliefs, the primary ways of how your consciousness works are shaped by your environment and people around you from the time you are born so so what you want is technically what other people made you want.
How is that fundamentaly different from "State Coercion" and how would your stateless society change that?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
helvete
Posts: 2727
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Tue, 22nd Feb 2011 21:47 Post subject: |
|
|
| dsergei wrote: | | Doesn't it work both ways though, Ronhrin. People are nothing without society - they simply do not become what we consider people without society. There have been countless examples (real examples, even though it is a popular theme in fiction) of human babies living among animals and then not being able to function properly among people - with not only their social skills but also low level cognitive functions inhibited by lack of interaction with other humans. |
What does this have to do with anything? State and hermithood aren't the only two options you know..
REPOST
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
|
| Posted: Tue, 22nd Feb 2011 22:21 Post subject: |
|
|
| dsergei wrote: | Doesn't it work both ways though, Ronhrin. People are nothing without society - they simply do not become what we consider people without society. There have been countless examples (real examples, even though it is a popular theme in fiction) of human babies living among animals and then not being able to function properly among people - with not only their social skills but also low level cognitive functions inhibited by lack of interaction with other humans.
Therefore one might say that there is no such thing as "individual consent". Your very values and beliefs, the primary ways of how your consciousness works are shaped by your environment and people around you from the time you are born so so what you want is technically what other people made you want.
How is that fundamentaly different from "State Coercion" and how would your stateless society change that? |
There is a very simple answer to why your premise is not valid, and it goes as this, society is a construct, only the individual is real, society is a choice that individuals make through their own individual free will and consent that they want and desire.
Society can only exist because we as individuals make a contract in how we desire to interact with other human beings, society does not exist by itself, only the individual does, only the individual is real, and only the individual consent exists, there is no such thing as group consent, due to the fact that group consent is only a sum of many individual consents that have the same goals.
With this in mind, society can only ever be legitimate if individual consent is treated as an uncompromisable aspect of the human experience, the preemptive rejection of individual consent which is what the State does in order to exist (again through the application of coercive taxation), is always illegitimate, and if in order for a society to survive, it has to reject the individual (which is the sole cause this same society exists in the first place), then this society cannot exist, society can only truly exist legitimately under a premise that it is absolutely consentual, regardless of what such society would be like (when compared to our current one).
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
WaldoJ
VIP Member
Posts: 32678
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 05:21 Post subject: |
|
|
jesus holy christ... seriously?
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 06:01 Post subject: |
|
|
“The moment the slave resolves that he will no longer be a slave, his fetters fall. Freedom and slavery are mental states.”
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 06:11 Post subject: |
|
|
one of my favorites from Goethe :
"Niemand ist mehr Sklave, als der sich für frei hält, ohne es zu sein."
which means
"No one is more of a slave than he who thinks himself free without being so."
And something from me :
You (we) are all slaves of the (monetary) system. Forced to make money to pay someone elses (the states) debt (to the national banks). Paying our rent, food, clothes. It is this system that makes people believe in the power (or need) of money. Buying useless crap, in order to show ones wealth and superiority over others. Feeding the (monetary) system, creating an addiction to it.
They (the bankers), and all the hyians below them, profit of the greed of mankind to feed their own, insatisfiable, hunger for more. Everything.
What is wealth ? Gold ? Money ? Cars ? I dont think so. Or do you REALLY think, someone is better, because he has more "stuff" than you ?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dsergei
Posts: 4059
Location: Moscow, Russia
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 07:32 Post subject: |
|
|
helvete, I was just giving an illustration of why individual concent (which is the cornerstone of Ronhrin's idea) might not exist at all. Of course there are other forms of human coexistance - but they are fundamentally equally opressing.
Ronhrin, you basically just repeated what you've already said without giving any kind of rebuttal. My idea was - Individual consent does not exist. You are just contradicting by saying it does without explaining why it must exist.
Did you give your individual consent to have certain people care for you after you were born? Did you choose which books they gave you? Did you subscribe to a system of morals they imposed on you? What if you were born into a religious family? Wouldn't you have been a different person so to say?
Might i ask another question? Are you a subjective idealist? Your ideas would work perfectly in such a system although it seems like you operate with "facts", "truths" etc - notions that have somewhat of an objectivist tint.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 07:41 Post subject: |
|
|
The anarchist society could work, look at it as an evolution of the existing system. Sure it cannot come over night, but if you educate enough ppl 
Check out Stefan Molyneux, he gives great explanations and has several books o the subject 
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 14:42 Post subject: |
|
|
my experience from anarchists and philosophers such as yourself, sir is that they're for the most part jobless and with a lot of free time to think about all sort of things, I've been there. but then I had a real life, my advice is, get a life, get busy and see if you're still gonna have time for that anarchist stuff, if you've ever worked hard in your life, you'll know that the world is merciless and if you don't work for a living nobody's gonna save you, nature doesn't take pity on the weak. social darwinism is the way I see it, even if everyone attacks it.
if you're one of the fortunate ones that are wealthy enough to have a steady life without working too much then You'll never understand why others are so "stooopid workers and corporate slaves"
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sin317
Banned
Posts: 24322
Location: Geneva
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 16:04 Post subject: |
|
|
| FireMaster wrote: | my experience from anarchists and philosophers such as yourself, sir is that they're for the most part jobless and with a lot of free time to think about all sort of things, I've been there. but then I had a real life, my advice is, get a life, get busy and see if you're still gonna have time for that anarchist stuff, if you've ever worked hard in your life, you'll know that the world is merciless and if you don't work for a living nobody's gonna save you, nature doesn't take pity on the weak. social darwinism is the way I see it, even if everyone attacks it.
if you're one of the fortunate ones that are wealthy enough to have a steady life without working too much then You'll never understand why others are so "stooopid workers and corporate slaves" |
"Niemand ist mehr Sklave, als der sich f�r frei h�lt, ohne es zu sein."
which means
"No one is more of a slave than he who thinks himself free without being so."
it so applies to you, its not even funny ...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 16:30 Post subject: |
|
|
sure, smartass. I'm a slave to self-interest, while idealists are babbling about all their ideolgogies I'll be ripping them off and leaving them in their own bubble. Capitalism is my homeslice, America, fuck yeah!
Fight for your shit like a real man, I'll be having some of the finest wenches and beverages while your scratch your chin thinking deeply about how big can an elephant's asshole be.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 16:44 Post subject: |
|
|
| FireMaster wrote: | sure, smartass. I'm a slave to self-interest, while idealists are babbling about all their ideolgogies I'll be ripping them off and leaving them in their own bubble. Capitalism is my homeslice, America, fuck yeah!
Fight for your shit like a real man, I'll be having some of the finest wenches and beverages while your scratch your chin thinking deeply about how big can an elephant's asshole be. |
There is no point in discussing with people such as yourself.
You openly claim that debate and the pursue of arguments conclusion is ridiculous and doesn't matter, all this while hanging on to false ideas and arrogant standpoints.
You behave yourself just as a religious redneck would, "Jesus is my savior and don't y'all come and saying that he don't cause I'll shoot you dead if you try"...
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 18:43 Post subject: |
|
|
| difm wrote: | | Ronhrin wrote: |
There is no point in discussing with people such as yourself.
You openly claim that debate and the pursue of arguments conclusion is ridiculous and doesn't matter, all this while hanging on to false ideas and arrogant standpoints.
You behave yourself just as a religious redneck would, "Jesus is my savior and don't y'all come and saying that he don't cause I'll shoot you dead if you try"... |
Pretty much same thing can be said about you too |
Only I know myself, and I can say with absolute certitude that I'm the exact opposite of your opinion about me.
I have no problems recognizing that I'm wrong, if and when I'm wrong, that is why I'm not discussing Anarchism exclusively on this topic, but rather something much more fundamental than this.
I have realized that my opinion about Anarchism, can only be an opinion, not a fact how I previously claimed, because Anarchism under modern conditions has never been tried and nobody can claim certitude that it would work, and equally nobody can claim certitude that it won't work, I still assert that I have a very broad and complete opinion that Anarchism would work on our present society, and that it will solve most of our current problems, without creating another more critical ones. But this is not what I have been discussing for the greatest part of this thread.
For those who want to rebut my opinion, I'm opened for discussion.
But what I have been arguing wasn't anything of the sort, it was very simply that, society today self proclaims itself as legitimate, and that the personal cost of the individuals sacrifice is justified by the "stability" all society gains as a whole.
That is my point right there, is that firstly, society is a collection of individuals, society only exists as a transcendence of the individual self, and without the individual willing consent society doesn't exist, therefore, only the individual is real, and the individual consent exists regardless of society existence, therefore only the individual consent should be considered prior to any other construct that assents on top of his consent, such as society. And considering this truth, society can never legitimate the rejection of individual consent as an absolute, because society only exists due to individual consent.
In other words, even if the perfect society could be achieved, and for it to happen, individual consent had to be compromised in some aspect, then this perfect society is not legitimate and can and should not exist.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 19:42 Post subject: |
|
|
| Ronhrin wrote: | | FireMaster wrote: | sure, smartass. I'm a slave to self-interest, while idealists are babbling about all their ideolgogies I'll be ripping them off and leaving them in their own bubble. Capitalism is my homeslice, America, fuck yeah!
Fight for your shit like a real man, I'll be having some of the finest wenches and beverages while your scratch your chin thinking deeply about how big can an elephant's asshole be. |
There is no point in discussing with people such as yourself.
You openly claim that debate and the pursue of arguments conclusion is ridiculous and doesn't matter, all this while hanging on to false ideas and arrogant standpoints.
You behave yourself just as a religious redneck would, "Jesus is my savior and don't y'all come and saying that he don't cause I'll shoot you dead if you try"... |
hooray we're making progress here... quick guys! join my cause!!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24642
Location: Your Mom
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 23:09 Post subject: |
|
|
I'll give FM.... 8/10
Good effort, trolling made by the book.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 23:25 Post subject: |
|
|
| Frant wrote: | I'll give FM.... 8/10
Good effort, trolling made by the book. |
You applaud his attitude because it serves your needs and because you have no interest on the subject.
If the circumstances of discussion where different you would have a very different reaction. 
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 23:29 Post subject: |
|
|
Holier than thou attitude is only gonna get you mocked here, Dr Manhattan.
go to a tinfoil hat forum and preach your utopian bible they'll hear you fine because they're all against DA GOVMENT.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 23:36 Post subject: |
|
|
| FireMaster wrote: | Holier than thou attitude is only gonna get you mocked here, Dr Manhattan.
go to a tinfoil hat forum and preach your utopian bible they'll hear you fine because they're all against DA GOVMENT. |
Yes, because that was exactly what I've been discussing lately...
If you want to rebut or criticize me, at least, read my posts. But obviously that may prove very difficult for you, considering your writing skills.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 23:43 Post subject: |
|
|
Your wall texts are more of a burden of uninteresting preachery than anything remotely plausible, power to the peeops yey I'm a revolutionary guy unlike you corporate slaves, hey at least we earn what we got instead of sitting in our houses for months judging the world from the sideline unaffected by it.
govmnt is just an idea it only has power because we gave it to them, NO SHIT, SHERLOCK???? we need those smartass politicians, yes they're for the most part just a bunch of scoundrels I ain't even a fan of them but they got their job to do, of course you wouldn't know, sir you don't live in planet earth you live in planet basement studying humans like they're your pet ants.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 23:51 Post subject: |
|
|
| FireMaster wrote: | Your wall texts are more of a burden of uninteresting preachery than anything remotely plausible, power to the peeops yey I'm a revolutionary guy unlike you corporate slaves, hey at least we earn what we got instead of sitting in our houses for months judging the world from the sideline unaffected by it.
govmnt is just an idea it only has power because we gave it to them, NO SHIT, SHERLOCK???? we need those smartass politicians, yes they're for the most part just a bunch of scoundrels I ain't even a fan of them but they got their job to do, of course you wouldn't know, sir you don't live in planet earth you live in planet basement studying humans like they're your pet ants. |
Again, that's not what I've been discussing lately, so if you can find the time and understanding to read the current topic being discussed, go right ahead, if not, there is really no point in posting anything further.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
| Posted: Wed, 23rd Feb 2011 23:53 Post subject: |
|
|
I do need to post further:
You sick creamy dicks
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Page 10 of 11 |
All times are GMT + 1 Hour |
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB 2.0.8 © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
|
 |
|
