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Lutzifer
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 Posted: Thu, 13th May 2010 22:18 Post subject: for ChinUp |
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to stop polluting the other sections with those god discussions i made this thread here in the useless void:
| ChinUp wrote: | Lutzifer .. bottom line the meaning you harbor for the word God is what defines you. You say you can handle preconceptions yet you continue to believe all belief in God is based on fiction. How do you account for people who experience something real they feel compelled to call God for lack of a better word ? For example an artist who sees form & design in everything & calls said form & design God. Or a musician who hears a sound being made by everything that makes up a universal orchestral movement the musician calls God ?
| Frant wrote: | | God = human philosophical construct to project ideas of omnipotence, creation and afterlife. |
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FIRST: you have a habit of not answering questions, but rather posting more questions instead.
If you do not stop this, the discussion will be short, because i ll just lock the thread then.
Ontopic:
Your first question:
I dont have to account for those people per se. It is not my job to do so. But if somebody describes such feelings of God, i ask them what it is that they feel and WHY they would call it god instead of something more tangible.
So, how do you know that it is real, what they are feeling. What makes you say that you can judge the quality yourself?
second question:
i d call that making false claims if i would call it anything. More likely i d ask them WHY they feel the need to see something behind things, when they are already in and by themselves beautifully enough.
What makes you think those comparisons are justified and why should anybody even care about their subjectiveness?
edit: also, the rolleyes at frant => for the sake of argument he has given a definition that is broad enough to fit in your own god is god definition and nearly all others. What is the problem with that?
www.psygamer.net :::: 
Last edited by Lutzifer on Thu, 13th May 2010 22:29; edited 2 times in total
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CRAIG2
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| Posted: Thu, 13th May 2010 22:24 Post subject: |
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Thu, 13th May 2010 22:41 Post subject: |
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also you made the following assumptions:
"bottom line the meaning you harbor for the word God is what defines you"
NO, it does not. Personality traits and states do.
furthermore:
"You say you can handle preconceptions yet you continue to believe all belief in God is based on fiction"
I m basing my view of reality on physical evidence and reasoned logic and have yet to see any God claim to be "real". Therefore i feel justified to assume a fictional nature of those stories about gods that people come up with until they can actually prove their claims to be correct. In that way i do not have to make any preconceptions about ficitonal things like gods in the way that you do (e.g. god is god) as much as i do not have to make room for unicorns or fairies.
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Thu, 13th May 2010 23:37 Post subject: Re: for ChinUp |
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| Lutzifer wrote: | Ontopic:
Your first question:
I dont have to account for those people per se. It is not my job to do so. But if somebody describes such feelings of God, i ask them what it is that they feel and WHY they would call it god instead of something more tangible. |
I do not understand your predisposition to presume any reference to God is a reference to something intangible. The examples I gave are examples of God being used to describe something tangible yet you assert its not allowed for some reason of your own.
| Lutzifer wrote: | | So, how do you know that it is real, what they are feeling. What makes you say that you can judge the quality yourself? |
Sounds are real, form is real perceiving all sounds as one sound & calling it God or perceiving all form & calling it God is also a reference to God based on something real.
| Lutzifer wrote: | second question:
i d call that making false claims if i would call it anything. More likely i d ask them WHY they feel the need to see something behind things, when they are already in and by themselves beautifully enough.
What makes you think those comparisons are justified and why should anybody even care about their subjectiveness? |
You seem reluctant to accept that people use the word God in reference to things other than fantasy. I understand why the church insists on people only referring to fantasy characters with the word God but do not understand your propensity to do so.
Anyone referring to something real with the word God is justified in their use of the word God. After all how can one justify the use of the word God in reference to a fantasy.
| Lutzifer wrote: | | edit: also, the rolleyes at frant => for the sake of argument he has given a definition that is broad enough to fit in your own god is god definition and nearly all others. What is the problem with that? |
Frants meaning is a clearly theistic one. Yet Frant refuses to admit that he harbors theistic ideas about God.
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Frant
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| Posted: Thu, 13th May 2010 23:41 Post subject: |
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ChinUp
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Frant
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Thu, 13th May 2010 23:53 Post subject: |
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Frant .. You adopt Biblical use of the word God because the majority do. I don't, i keep my own counsel on things nobody is an authority on. To you God must be a reference to a fantasy character, like the Bible preaches. Appealing to the majority in matters of religion is asking for right wing religions view. The majority just go along with whatever requires the least thought & effort. Liberated religious thought is thin on the ground for obvious reasons, it exposes peoples blinkered devotion to church ideas.
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
Last edited by ChinUp on Thu, 13th May 2010 23:56; edited 1 time in total
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Frant
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| Posted: Thu, 13th May 2010 23:56 Post subject: |
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| ChinUp wrote: | | Frant .. You adopt Biblical use of the word God because the majority do. I don't, i keep my own counsel on things nobody is an authority on. To you God must be a reference to a fantasy character, like the Bible preaches. |
No
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Thu, 13th May 2010 23:57 Post subject: |
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Where do the majority & the dictionary get their meaning for the word God ? What is the most published book in the world on the topic of God ?
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Frant
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 00:01 Post subject: |
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| ChinUp wrote: |
Where do the majority & the dictionary get their meaning for the word God ? What is the most published book in the world on the topic of God ? |
Who cares? It's semantics.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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ChinUp
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Frant
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 00:08 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | Ask theists that actually believe in a deity/god. |
People who believe God is a deity are people who just go along with whatever they are told & don't put any thought into what God is. Its the easy option.
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Frant
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 00:10 Post subject: |
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And my option is that 'god' is just a word that some people (not myself) make into something else.
The word 'god' to me is nothing but a word and knowing that other people have ideas about it.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 00:15 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | And my option is that 'god' is just a word that some people (not myself) make into something else.
The word 'god' to me is nothing but a word and knowing that other people have ideas about it. |
Then how do you account for thinking atheists can't believe in God ?
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Frant
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 00:16 Post subject: |
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I don't have to account for anything. Atheist is nothing you choose to become, it's just a description of someone with the absence of faith of any intangible higher power called 'god'.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 00:19 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | I don't have to account for anything. Atheist is nothing you choose to become, it's just a description of someone with the absence of faith of any intangible higher power called 'god'. |
Newborns are atheist right ? As soon as a person is convinced God = "intangible higher power" (deity) they loose their atheism & start thinking like a theist about God. Ie start thinking about God like the church wants people too.
Do you agree or disagree ?
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 00:42 Post subject: Re: for ChinUp |
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| ChinUp wrote: |
I do not understand your predisposition to presume any reference to God is a reference to something intangible. The examples I gave are examples of God being used to describe something tangible yet you assert its not allowed for some reason of your own. |
the "predisposition" you accuse me of stems from the fact that i have never experienced any "god" nor has anybody ever been able to demonstrate the existence of a "god". As i have said numerous times here, i do not have the burden of proof, because i am not making the claim that something like "god" does exist. Also the examples you have given do not describe something tangible, they describe an act of attribution of meaning to subjective perceptions and feelings.
| Quote: | | Sounds are real, form is real perceiving all sounds as one sound & calling it God or perceiving all form & calling it God is also a reference to God based on something real. |
now you re being silly. By calling something a thing you do not make it real just because the sound is real nor do you call the thing itself into existence. Referencing something fictitious with something real does not make the fictitious real either.
The question i asked is one of the more interesting philosophical ones regarding theory of mind that should make you aware of the quality of subjectiveness. One cannot experience the same as another. People can try to describe what they feel or experience but somebody else can never be able to experience the absolute same or know the quality of those perceptions / feelings. That is why philosophers refer to subjective accounts (feelings, perceptions) as qualia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia
Qualia can never be an explanation for something because it is not subject to scientific analysis. It can only be evaluated by what people say and never evaluated by the scientific method per se.
| Quote: |
You seem reluctant to accept that people use the word God in reference to things other than fantasy. I understand why the church insists on people only referring to fantasy characters with the word God but do not understand your propensity to do so.
Anyone referring to something real with the word God is justified in their use of the word God. After all how can one justify the use of the word God in reference to a fantasy. |
i am not reluctant to accept that people use the word God in reference to things other than fiction. On the contrary, i full well know that half the planet seems to be using the word God as if it was something other than fiction. I am strongly opposed to the validity of their claims of the existence of God though, because nobody has been able to demonstrate the correctness of their claims yet. YOU on the other hand seem to be more than reluctant to accept that your God claim may be fictitious.
| Quote: |
Frants meaning is a clearly theistic one. Yet Frant refuses to admit that he harbors theistic ideas about God. |
no, how is it clear (it is not to me, rather the opposite)? Argue how his definition is theistic instead of repeating the allegation again and again without an argument to go with it.
Furthermore, how is that even relevant? You seem to be hellbent in this forum to accuse everybody of using theist definitions of religion while you have never substantiated WHY that is needed in the discussions we have here. What is the relevance to the topics, that you bring it up again and again?
www.psygamer.net ::::
Last edited by Lutzifer on Fri, 14th May 2010 00:54; edited 1 time in total |
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Nalo
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 00:47 Post subject: |
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 00:51 Post subject: |
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i think the semantic issue is the concept of deity that he is going on about (he believes in god (which is god) but not in deities). I guess he is a pantheist, but since he never actually tells us anything, i m not sure. To me pantheism is the ultimate cop-out, but thats another story for when he admits to it 
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 00:58 Post subject: |
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Lutzifer ... is hearing birds all singing together in the morning a fiction or a Qualia because its never sounds the same twice or the same to different people in spite of them both listening @ the same time ? Take it one step further to all sounds occurring everywhere, a musician may call that God. Would this belief in God not be an atheistic one ? Based on something real ?
Frant refers to God as an intangible higher power, as does the church. Its in the churches interests to perpetuate the idea that God is some intangible higher power in order to lay the foundations for speaking for said intangible higher power.
I appose the churches presumption of influence over others via this pretense upon the nature of God. Thus I appose people spreading this idea that God is an intangible higher power. When people say God is BULL they are backing the churches bid to dominate peoples thinking about God. For God to be considered BULL you have to first think God is some intangible higher power.
The enemy is church thinking about God not God, the enemy is the church thinking about religion not religion. To bash God & religion because of the church is toolish all it does is prop up church thinking about God & religion.
You don't attack music in general because of crap formulated pop do you, so where is the sense in bashing religion because of church mubojumbo. Its like bashing beauty because of what fashion magazines write about it. Its a mistake to allow the church to hide behind peoples willingness to believe the church is all there is to religion.
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
Last edited by ChinUp on Fri, 14th May 2010 01:09; edited 2 times in total
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Frant
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 01:07 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Frant refers to God as an intangible higher power |
Now you're just silly. That's not MY belief or faith, that's my understanding of OTHER peoples beliefs.
YOU believe "god" is some intangible higher power. I on the other hand don't have any belief in a "god" or an intangible higher power, I just acknowledge other peoples descriptions without agreeing or believing in them.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
Last edited by Frant on Fri, 14th May 2010 01:09; edited 1 time in total
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Nalo
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 01:08 Post subject: |
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ChinUp
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 01:12 Post subject: |
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Nalo since when do atheists call deities God ? By asserting atheists deny the existence of God your asserting that atheists believe God is a deity. Are you not ?
Pantheists believe everything is God. I perceive God to be something within everything. Like the grain in wood. My beliefs are similar to that of Taoism. The Tao is not everything it is a quality found within everything.
Frant .. am I mistaken that you described God as an intangible higher power as a justification for thinking all atheists don't believe in God ? How else can you justify thinking atheists cant believe in God apart from asserting God is a deity ie intangible higher power ?
"Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in & out of favor." ~ Frost
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 01:24 Post subject: |
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And again, flawed reasoning by using the converse argument again (A follows B does not mean B follows A). NO Chinup, one does not have to have ANY presumptions / assertions about the nature of God (e.g. being some intangible higher power) to reject the notion of the validity of god-claims. But since the majority of people on the planet has a consensus on God being defined as a higher intangible power it does not matter at all for the arguments here. Why do you insist that it does? Are you an evangelical pantheist?
And no, criticising beliefs in things that are not demonstrably true or morally problematic does not help the church or religion. It is preposterous that you claim such a thing AGAIN by using an e contrario argument.
And no, i do not attack music in general for crappy pop-music. But that is not a valid comparison you re making there. You re comparing quality-critique of something artistic and man-made to the criticism of fallacious arguments of believers. Also, religion is empirically demonstrably bad for society while i have not yet seen anything about music to suggest the same.
edit: OK, finally you actually tell us what you believe. Took your sweet time with it I ll wait for my comment on pantheism untill you commented on the above
www.psygamer.net ::::
Last edited by Lutzifer on Fri, 14th May 2010 01:26; edited 1 time in total
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Nalo
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 01:25 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Fri, 14th May 2010 01:33 Post subject: |
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lmao you guys are fucking INSANE arguing with Chinup
A you're always running in circles
B he never makes his arguments clear
C he's always on acid.
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