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zipfero
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Lutzifer
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 Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 22:56 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:04 Post subject: |
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Thanks lutzi for bumping this thread i was searching for that pic! 
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:08 Post subject: |
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Religous debates with nonbelievers. No matter what you tell them they just wont believe in any thing almighty ;(
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Ronhrin
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:20 Post subject: |
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| PumpAction wrote: | | Thanks lutzi for bumping this thread i was searching for that pic! |
ORLY?  |
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:33 Post subject: |
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The difference being... ?
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:43 Post subject: |
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For some people religion is an identity and a community which they can belong to. It comforts them when they are scared, it explains why bad(and good) things happen and so on. Nothing really bad in that just a way to simplify everyday. The other way around we're just stating the obvious like noah didn't a build a huge ass boat.
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:46 Post subject: |
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| Atropa wrote: | | Ronhrin wrote: | | Atropa wrote: | | Religous debates with nonbelievers. No matter what you tell them they just wont believe in any thing almighty ;( |
My intolerance flag just went on!
Are you ready to have a rational logical debate on reasoning and perceiving the fact that all religions are wrong, or will you make my day making a fool of yourself?
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With the risk of already making a fool of myself from start , do you want to debate whether all religions are wrong(as in what they are based on), er whether religion is wrong(believing in shit and stuff) |
the main thing that bothers me about "discussions" with religious people is the brain-killing circularity of it all. |
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:49 Post subject: |
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Well people do tend to talk to other side in religious debates as if they were morons and that goes both ways. If some one tried to take away your tool to understand difficult situations i guess you would be kind of cranky to?
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:50 Post subject: Re: Religous debates with believers.. |
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| Namarie wrote: | Is there anything more pointless than this?
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Posting a topic about it?
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jan 2010 23:55 Post subject: |
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| Atropa wrote: | | For some people religion is an identity and a community which they can belong to. It comforts them when they are scared, it explains why bad(and good) things happen and so on. Nothing really bad in that just a way to simplify everyday. The other way around we're just stating the obvious like noah didn't a build a huge ass boat. |
Hey, if tucking your hand in the sand fives you comfort, and as long as you keep the bullshit to yourself and your groups, that's fine and I don't care about religion.
Problems arise when religious idiots try to force that crap on us, reaching hilarious proportions, when, for example, nutjobs in the USA don't believe in evolution, DNA, etc, and demand that kids be taught different theories. Problems arise when your whole fucking country thinks some piece of land is yours because some silly fiction book says so, and commits genocide and occupation. Problems arise when men are aloud to marry 12 year old children or beat their wives or execute people for being homosexuals or blame rape victims, all because they follow some nutjob religion. |
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:01 Post subject: |
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| Atropa wrote: | | Ronhrin wrote: | | Atropa wrote: | | Religous debates with nonbelievers. No matter what you tell them they just wont believe in any thing almighty ;( |
My intolerance flag just went on!
Are you ready to have a rational logical debate on reasoning and perceiving the fact that all religions are wrong, or will you make my day making a fool of yourself?
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With the risk of already making a fool of myself from start , do you want to debate whether all religions are wrong(as in what they are based on), er whether religion is wrong(believing in shit and stuff) |
Firstly you need to understand what exactly is the nature of believe, believe is a personal human desire or abstract knowledge about the nature of a specific thing or a specific outcome with no empirical factual knowledge or proof to back it up.
For instance, you can believe you will succeed in an exam without studying because you believe there will only be easy questions in there, but when you study and completely comprehend the subject in which your exam is about down to it's every layer of knowledge, then it isn't a matter of believe, then it is a fact that you will pass the exam because you have absolutely no question or doubt about the subject.
About the nature of religion, no matter what some evangelists might argue, it is obvious to any intelligent person that every last religion on earth was initially created by man by various purposes and cultural differences, it was mankind first attempt in trying to understand the universe as well as man's place in it mixed in with some sense of purpose and a philosophical meaning to life.
There were countless religions through the centuries, the oldest religions date back to 7000 BC, more than 9000 years ago, and during these times religions kept improving passing on from culture to culture, from generation to generation, being morphed and converted into something else.
If you notice the major religions in the world, such as Christianism and Islam, they were created within a time delay from a couple of decades between each other, one might even say that they were a sort of cultural response to the other mainly because of it's creators were apart of conflicting regions with one another.
Taking into consideration that the very notion of a supreme being and creator of the universe was created by man, you have to realize that there isn't any rational reason to argue it's existence.
Science is the mechanism by which humans gather empirical observable and verifiable knowledge, it is constantly changing because we are constantly discovering new perspectives on how nature really works.
People that argue in defense of the existence of god, do so by using inductive reasoning, which is the process of getting a immutable answer, and finding every possible loophole or missing piece of information to try and construct a path of reasoning towards their end.
The way science is made is by using deductive reasoning, which takes the standpoint in which we know nothing to begin with aside from that that our senses can grasp and try to open a path for truth making deductions about the nature of reality and testing them under every conceivable situation before a given theory or thesis can be considered as a empirical truthful fact.
One can argue that we would probably never fully understand the mechanics of the universe, and while this might be true or false under the context of what the universe really is.
It's still obvious that making up an answer that appeals to human emotion and completely contradicts the currently accepted laws of physics isn't the way to go. Far from it.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:04 Post subject: |
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Ron, I actually heard an evangelist scientist (talk about oxymorons ) on YouTube say that DNA is bullshit, because "can you see this DNA? Because I sure I can't!" 
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:04 Post subject: |
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Yeah i know there seem to be some side effects :/. I just don't buy that it's all religions fault. I have a hard time beliving that stupid fucks who marry 12 year olds and stone rape victims wouldn't be stupid fucks in the first place. They seem so easily manipulated into thinking what some twisted priest seem to believe is written in some old book(I really have no idea how much of what you hear is true). If it werent religion wouldnt it just have been something else?
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:05 Post subject: |
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| Atropa wrote: | | If it werent religion wouldnt it just have been something else? |
Like what? |
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:12 Post subject: |
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| iNatan wrote: | | Atropa wrote: | | If it werent religion wouldnt it just have been something else? |
Like what? |
Like a different religion!?
I guess he is opened for a rational debate, let us know your logical stance in believing in god and I'll answer respectfully to everything.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:16 Post subject: |
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| iNatan wrote: | | Atropa wrote: | | If it werent religion wouldnt it just have been something else? |
Like what? |
Ideology, tradition etc... basically, religion is just one more tool to control the simple with. The point he's trying to make is take religion away, and there will be something else equally as stupid. It's because humanity is flawed; religion is just one glaringly obvious flaw.
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:28 Post subject: |
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| tainted4ever wrote: | | iNatan wrote: | | Atropa wrote: | | If it werent religion wouldnt it just have been something else? |
Like what? |
Ideology, tradition etc... basically, religion is just one more tool to control the simple with. The point he's trying to make is take religion away, and there will be something else equally as stupid. It's because humanity is flawed; religion is just one glaringly obvious flaw. |
Not according Fox News
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:39 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: |
Firstly you need to understand what exactly is the nature of believe, believe is a personal human desire or abstract knowledge about the nature of a specific thing or a specific outcome with no empirical factual knowledge or proof to back it up. |
I dont get it. I cant believe in something if it has empirical proof? Or maybe just hints at it. I really think i missed something here. I truly believe that Newtons laws is a nice way of describing the classical region of physics. I would say there is quite a lot of hints in that direction.
| Ronhrin wrote: |
For instance, you can believe you will succeed in an exam without studying because you believe there will only be easy questions in there, but when you study and completely comprehend the subject in which your exam is about down to it's every layer of knowledge, then it isn't a matter of believe, then it is a fact that you will pass the exam because you have absolutely no question or doubt about the subject. |
This is vague. You can't call something as random as passing an exam as a fact beforehand. Lots of stuff could go wrong. Futher down you argue we should do it the scientific way and still you call this a fact!
| Ronhrin wrote: |
About the nature of religion, no matter what some evangelists might argue, it is obvious to any intelligent person that every last religion on earth was initially created by man by various purposes and cultural differences, it was mankind first attempt in trying to understand the universe as well as man's place in it mixed in with some sense of purpose and a philosophical meaning to life.
There were countless religions through the centuries, the oldest religions date back to 7000 BC, more than 9000 years ago, and during these times religions kept improving passing on from culture to culture, from generation to generation, being morphed and converted into something else.
If you notice the major religions in the world, such as Christianism and Islam, they were created within a time delay from a couple of decades between each other, one might even say that they were a sort of cultural response to the other mainly because of it's creators were apart of conflicting regions with one another. |
I dont know what your point is. Because its human based people shouldnt believe in it?
| Ronhrin wrote: |
Taking into consideration that the very notion of a supreme being and creator of the universe was created by man, you have to realize that there isn't any rational reason to argue it's existence.
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But i don't see any reason to argue against it. Science and religion has lived besides each for a long time without any problems(well it hasn't been all fun and games). The whole nature of science is to try and understand things by disproving other things. It wont be easy to disprove something which their isnt any proof of(god). Its a waste of time.
| Ronhrin wrote: |
People that argue in defense of the existence of god, do so by using inductive reasoning, which is the process of getting a immutable answer, and finding every possible loophole or missing piece of information to try and construct a path of reasoning towards their end. |
Arguing for a god is just as big a waste of time as the arguing for no god.
| Ronhrin wrote: |
It's still obvious that making up an answer that appeals to human emotion and completely contradicts the currently accepted laws of physics isn't the way to go. Far from it. |
Well as long as it doenst hinder any advance i dont care either way.
Last edited by Atropa on Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:49; edited 1 time in total
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 00:44 Post subject: |
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| Atropa wrote: | | Science and religion has lived besides each for a long time without any problems(well it hasn't been all fun and games). |
You mean besides burning people on the stake for saying the Earth is a sphere as opposed to flat?
Just one example, of course. |
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 01:08 Post subject: |
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Nice link for sure havent read through yet. It almost sounds as you dont think anything good comes out of islam any more?
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 01:12 Post subject: |
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| Atropa wrote: | | Nice link for sure havent read through yet. It almost sounds as you dont think anything good comes out of islam any more? |
Nothing good comes from religion or from religious driven actions.
Most people who make good deeds and help others in the name of religion are actually trying to prove themselves worthy to god.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 01:13 Post subject: |
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Not just Islam, but they are certainly going through their dark age. When you compare the big three, they are certainly at the peak of awfulness.
As much as some try to convince us how all the fanatics are just a minority, the fact that there is no vocal opposition to Saudi Arabia and the alike by the supposedly sane majority, just proves how wrong they are.
And hopefully PumpAction (and our other Muslim users) will forgive me. I do not target this at specific individuals, but rather at the entire group. Judaism is pretty awful too, as I have first hand experience, but there are, what, 20 mil. at the most worldwide?
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Ronhrin
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 01:21 Post subject: |
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| iNatan wrote: | Not just Islam, but they are certainly going through their dark age. When you compare the big three, they are certainly at the peak of awfulness.
As much as some try to convince us how all the fanatics are just a minority, the fact that there is no vocal opposition to Saudi Arabia and the like, just proves how wrong they are.
And hopefully PumpAction will forgive me. I do not target this at specific individuals, but rather at the entire group. Judaism is pretty awful too, as I have first hand experience, but there are, what, 20 mil. at the most worldwide? |
Yeah, there are still quite a few of them, Hitler wasn't able to finish the job 
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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| Posted: Thu, 28th Jan 2010 01:44 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | iNatan wrote: | Not just Islam, but they are certainly going through their dark age. When you compare the big three, they are certainly at the peak of awfulness.
As much as some try to convince us how all the fanatics are just a minority, the fact that there is no vocal opposition to Saudi Arabia and the like, just proves how wrong they are.
And hopefully PumpAction will forgive me. I do not target this at specific individuals, but rather at the entire group. Judaism is pretty awful too, as I have first hand experience, but there are, what, 20 mil. at the most worldwide? |
Yeah, there are still quite a few of them, Hitler wasn't able to finish the job |
I'm sure someone could find that offensive even if you're just joking.
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. Maybe im way out here but havnt a big number of physics laws been made by religious men?
