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 Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 20:33 Post subject: Linux mess nowadays |
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http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/going-to-windows.html
(Try to read it completely before commenting. Also, people with little or absolutely no experience in any OS other than Windows are not competent to talk about this topic, sry nhf)
Anyhow, I agree with this text completely. I remmember how everything went very well until 2011. in Linux desktop world. It was actually progressing in both usability and reliability. Ubuntu 10.04 was almost perfect desktop distribution (I'm still using it at work, it's both rock stable and easy to use as a workstation desktop OS with great multimedia support), 10.10 was also good, Mint was turning into a very usable Linux distro, Fedora was OK (it was the semiofficial beta test distro for commercial Red Hat even then, but still), Suse 11.x was OK, etc.
And now... well this paragraph sums it all.
| Quote: | | As for the rest? It's all pretty much the same. A few excellent distributions tailored for specific uses where they work just fine, like live CD usage or forensics. But the classic, conventional desktop is pretty much dead from that perspective. Fedora is just a silly beta, openSUSE hasn't moved an inch in the past decade, Debian is fighting a religious war, and then you get to the one million forks, which are little more than some of the lead distros with string substitutions and extra bugs. Most perversely, CentOS, which was never designed for desktop use, is a ten times better candidate that pretty much all the rest. |
Don't want to paraphrase conclusions from this text, just read it. It perfectly describes present state and the (lack of) perspective.
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garus
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 21:16 Post subject: |
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snip
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 21:30 Post subject: |
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yea
i think the problem is, some people mistake linux as a ready to use desktop OS
it's not.. it's a bit like legos vs. matchbox cars
it has it's roots in hacking shit together and it will always take center stage
none of the distros have a fucking spine so everything turns into spaghetti (except ubuntu, who want to turn it into fucking windows! i have windows for that!)
everything is always a huge fight to get working
also, what's debian's "religious war" again?
i have debian running my server with irc and torrents and other 'secondary desktop' stuff on it
KDE is 'ok', but damn is it heavy
the service oriented way of making applications is something we would never see on windows and i would never give up
i just love that my music player is a daemon i can connect a client to from anywhere, ssh, irc proxy, all my IM protocols within same irssi session, etc
but i couldn't dream of using linux as a primary OS
it's a tool for a different job
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garus
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 21:32 Post subject: |
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snip
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 21:38 Post subject: |
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No word on xfce, slackware/salix/arch but word on returning back to windows. Sure unity/gnome fucked up. Xfce didnt ! You can make it look and act however the hell you want .... And what's wrong with Mint ? The "is suffering" and "redefining might take years" arguments are bullshit, everything in linux is constantly changing anyway
ASUS TUF B550M-PLUS | RYZEN 5600x | RTX 3060TI | 16GB DDR4
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Werelds
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 21:52 Post subject: |
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Everyone hailing G2 as the holy grail keeps forgetting that its predecessor was just as shit - they are trying to evolve. For me personally, KDE has always been shit, always too much bloat in it. Don't get me wrong, Unity is not perfect; like he points out, by default you've got no way to really multitask effectively. Ubuntu being Ubuntu however, it takes 3 fucking commands in your terminal to install DockbarX, and behold, you've got something that beats the SHIT out of the old GNOME (thanks Win7). Meanwhile, the search lens works brilliantly (unlike Spotlight in OS X and works better than Win7's even - without having any effect on your system), the global menu implementation saves real estate and works with almost every application (thanks for that one OS X). The only time I see the crappy sidebar is when I press my Windows ( ) key to search for something.
I'll post a screenshot of my Ubuntu tomorrow, but the way that article is written shows that he is a pretty archaic, stubborn bastard. The only thing he's missing is his taskbar and DockbarX can fulfill that need just fine. Now, if he had actually given a shit and if he really has been using Linux for more than 2 days, he'd know about it or would've find it with a single Google search.
Windows is not perfect. OS X is not perfect. Linux is not perfect. The big difference? Out of the three, the latter is easiest to customise, especially with a distro like Ubuntu which has support for just about everything. And that's coming from a guy who skipped XP until SP2 was out (bless Win2K <3), and who ran a dead simple Debian installation for years (rather than one of the "pretty" implementations). To this day I still can't stand the default Teletubby theme in WinXP and I still have a foul taste of how unstable it was at first.
Most annoying thing about that article is that the only actual "problem" he points out is about the multitasking (not being able to see all windows at a glance). Like many he just goes "IT'S SHIT" - when asked why, he goes "urrrrrr". I'm not impressed.
@ garus: what EXACTLY is so bad about Ubuntu now then? Shitty sidebar aside, because that is easily replaced (in fact, if you want to, you can use plain GNOME panels even with Unity enabled - and they work fine, I used them for a while).
Edit: I'm not 100% satisfied with my Ubuntu, but it's damn near perfect. I'm not 100% satisfied with Win7 either, nor am I with OS X. Each of them has flaws in different areas, some more serious than others.
That's also my entire point. Everyone prefers some O/S for whatever reason and none of them are perfect nor suited for everyone. Again, Linux is the easiest to customise if you want to.
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garus
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 22:19 Post subject: |
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snip
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 22:38 Post subject: |
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For me, the biggest problem is how archaic the software design and look is. From IDEs to office suits to graphics software. There just aren't alternatives that are good. I am not sure why this is the case, but I think it's that "Linux mindset", where change is bad, Windows-like is bad, etc. There are countless of talented developers, yet the software looks archaic. And then there are the open source software zealots, posting things such as
Gimp Replaces: Photoshop
Paint.Net Replaces: Photoshop
AbiWord Replaces: Microsoft Word
LibreOffice Replaces: Microsoft Office
KOffice Replaces: Microsoft Office
NeoOffice Replaces: Microsoft Office
OpenOffice.org Replaces: Microsoft Office
StarOffice Replaces: Microsoft Office
Avidemux Replaces: Adobe Premiere
I know this is a handpicked example of stupidity, but this is the large mindset of Linux users (certainly the "oldschool" ones) and sadly, the serious developers. Why does software has to look like it's from the 90s? Just opening one of these "replacements" makes me feel tired. So much UI clutter, everything is so busy - toolbars, buttons, menus, toolbars. The world has moved from these dated concepts for a reason. Look at Office on Windows and Mac compared to the usual suspects on Linux (or their compiled brothers for other platforms). Horrible. Office 98. Linux software has to mature, and fast. Say what you want about Ubuntu, but at least they are pushing their software to have a better UI overall. Note, I say "software", because I am not a big fan at all of these touch-friendly start menus with huge spanning canvasses over significant portions of the screen (worst-case scenario: Windows 8  ). Sure, give it as an option, but fuck off if you try to shove it down my throat. OS X has that launcher thingie also, but it is optional, I can just use the usual Applications folder balloon I like.
Then there is the issue that is close to my heart, which is the video playback performance. I have had the same experience on my old laptop (C2D, old Mobility Radeon) and an old PC (Intel Dual Core + GF6600GT/Intel GMA 3000). Why is it that with Windows installed, I can play a 40 Mbps H.264 video just fine with ffmpeg-mt (and with CoreAVC, the system is actually usable while playing), but a 17 Mbps chokes in Linux with ffmpeg-mt? I just don't understand it. Why is the video driver so much slower than it's Windows version? Why is there so much overhead on the CPU that the same software decoder cannot do its job with exactly the same performance? Isn't Linux supposed to be lightweight and Windows bloat with all its AERO (4MB of ram!!!)? BTW, this was also true for the OS X nVidia driver the last time I checked the Snow Leopard hackintosh. I am sure the usual excuses will follow; "You didn't compile ffmpeg for your exact CPU", "You didn't install the driver from the specific repository through the commandline because using GUI sucks and it makes drivers slower", "You didn't recompile the kernel with "--enable-fast-video-performance-and-use-less-cpu-cycles" flag" and so on. But the question remains, one can't Linux just work without having to fiddle with it beyond the simple install -> drivers -> software?
@Paul: What doesn't work for Spotlight exactly? Not that I use it much, or any other of the searches (I am an oldfart, prefer to go to the folder and pick it out of 10000 files!  No, actually I just don't remember file names). But everything I have searched for works. I love that in both Windows and Spotlight, you can do complex searches in email messages from Outlook. In Windows it works so much faster than the native Outlook search. 
Edit: I think I would be able to overlook the major problems with having a Linux OS if the software was right. But as it is, if I want to run a Linux OS as a main OS, the first thing I have to do is look for some emulation/hack/etc to run my Windows software on it. So why bother?
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 22:44 Post subject: |
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Also, we can go into tiny quirks that bother me; why is there no support for standard and special font ligatures on Linux? There is a nice sub-pixel font rendering system, but it cannot cope with ligatures. It's stupid really. "But it's open source software, shut up and code it yourself or you have no legal right to complain."
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garus
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 23:21 Post subject: |
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snip
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Werelds
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 23:31 Post subject: |
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@ garus: Right, forgot about that. Still don't get how that happens :/
And no, it's not your damn ATI because mine works fine; GPU acceleration works, dual monitors, no problems at all.
@ Leo: not everything looks so antique and in fact, most of the software I use is in fact cross-platform. There is only one piece of software which I really miss and which is the reason I've been doubting to pick up a GT240 for Hackintosh, and that's Photoshop. It's annoying to do via a VM and GIMP is just plain shit and one of the antique bits Linux purists hold on to so strongly (I'm not one of them, obviously). For me, there is hardly any difference between Ubuntu and OS X at this point. I'll lose the taskbar which is vastly superior to the crappy dock IMO (you may like it, I don't, never have - too big, too bloaty, too much waste of space), but that's something I can live with. On all other fronts there really is not that much difference (although I don't quite like Finder either and OS X's window management is quite iffy).
As for the Unity search lens, I haven't actually gone into "Start > Programs" on Windows since I switched to Win 7 RC. There is nothing quicker than keeping both your hands on the keyboard, hitting one key, typing what you need and hitting enter. That's why I don't give a fuck that the applications menu is gone, because this is quicker anyway. Now you may think that I love VIM since that's all keyboard, but I don't; however, have you ever used SublimeText2? If not, just for the fun of it - try it and press CMD + SHIFT + P. That functionality will be in Ubuntu 12.04 as well for any application that supports the global menu (which, so far, is all of the ones I use - even the Java shit). I do agree that the lens could be smaller and there should be an option to do so (again, ST2 gets it perfectly right in terms of looks and functionality).
Unity gets a lot of shit, but its lens works just fine and it's the sidebar that's causing most people grief. If people really hate losing the separate menu bars that much that the global menu should be gone - guess what, YOU CAN. I prefer to lose them though, it's something Apple got right in OS X a long time ago. Gives me more space and I hardly ever need them; most I have shortcuts for. And next month, I'll have the app HUD or whatever the fuck they call it - the ST2-like "menu" search. So fuck menu bars as well (including the global ones such as in Ubuntu now or in OS X).
As for Spotlight: they may have fixed it in Lion, I don't know. You are running an SSD as well, which helps. That said, once you get a larger amount of files (how long have you had yours now?) it just never returns any results; one of my colleagues in the UK had to turn his spotlight off in fact because it kept indexing nonstop, yet it couldn't find even simple files on the desktop. It just breaks very easily, is very inefficient and doesn't even find everything. Remember all the rage about Windows' indexer? Spotlight was much worse and almost everyone (well, anyone using it for more than browsing) turned it off in Tiger and Leopard; SL was the first one where it stopped raping your system. Having an SSD helps loads for that obviously. If I turn on Spotlight on the Powerbook I've got here (which was "designed" for Tiger and Leopard FFS ) it's almost like booting up a P1 running XP, waiting for 5 minutes after boot for it to settle the fuck down - like I said earlier, Centrino 1.6/768MB + Win7 = fine 
Last edited by Werelds on Mon, 12th Mar 2012 23:33; edited 1 time in total
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garus
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 23:33 Post subject: |
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snip
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 23:35 Post subject: |
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Did you REMOVE the default fglrx before installing the Catalysts? Because for me it literally takes a purge of all fglrx followed by sudo ./amd-cat-x.xx.bin :/
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garus
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| Posted: Mon, 12th Mar 2012 23:37 Post subject: |
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snip
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Saner
Posts: 6877
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| Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2012 08:10 Post subject: |
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The ATI drivers are shite on linux for the majority.
They work fine for the minority.
When they work they are fine, but 80 % of the time they dont wqork.
For most people when you have a full screen OpenGL application open, with fglrx you cant Alt + Tab now thats just stupid.
anyway, thats where for me linux can fall flat with driver support, as to how it looks, well for me functionality is more important than looks.
| ragnarus wrote: |
I saw things like that in here and in other "woman problems" topics so...... Am I the only one that thinks some authorities needs to be alerted about Saner and him possibly being a rapist and/or kidnapper ? |
Saner is not being serious. Unless its the subject of Santa!
Last edited by Saner on Tue, 13th Mar 2012 09:20; edited 1 time in total
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couleur
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| Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2012 08:28 Post subject: |
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About OSX: I've been using it since 10.4, and never had a problem with spotlight. But maybe thats because I dont have to handle a lot of files (mostly document files and movies etc.) Once it's finished indexing, which really takes a night after installation sometimes I find it quite responsive and very useful. Also, since 10.7 (maybe even before, but I cant remember), you have the option to fullscreen many applications now to a specific desktop space. I am used to having "Mission control" in my upper-right corner so switching apps is less then a second. Also, for the hackintosh users, OSX works flawlessly with a XFX 6870 DFBE. But its always a pain you have to wait for proper drivers to update your gfx. I am going to make a switch from Penryn to Ivy bridge soon, so I hope they will get that running on OSX asap. Shouldnt be a problem though, since Sandy Bridge worked flawlessly.
I'm running Windows 7 mainly for Gaming, but since I do that alot lately, I stay booted in W7 a lot. Both systems work for me, but I am having a more comfortable workflow on OSX. And because the system is there to help me get things done, this is what I mainly choose for work.
I've only been using lubuntu on my girlfriends old 256MB Ram / Intel Celeron Laptop, and I was quite surprised by it. I havent touched Linux for myself seriously since some SUSE version, I cant even remember the version number.
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2012 12:18 Post subject: |
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@ Saner: well yeah, most companies don't bother with Linux drivers. Quite annoying actually, as my X-Fi is only partially supported because Creative don't have a proper driver. Can't say I've done much on the 3D part as that's not what I use Linux for, nor would I use OS X for it. Windows is still the master on that front, but just for a giggle I'll load an OpenGL application later and see if I can alt tab
That said, a lot of the issues I see on the web regarding AMD/ATI drivers are people who didn't remove the standard fglrx and open source drivers before installing the proprietary ones. It's part of Linux' major downside, they really need to make it easier to do. Then again, on OS X you don't get drivers for anything unless the manufacturer pays the fees - again, Windows is the king when it comes to drivers, both in support as well as development (just go grab the WDDK and you're pretty much good to go).
@ couleur: a 6870 is a waste of money to me, already have a 6950 2GB (hence my considering to pick up a GT240, which should suffice). Which is the one reason I hate Apple's fucking terrible policy; considering they already do have cards from every generation from both NVIDIA and AMD working, it would be a piece of cake to let both of them just open up their drivers to be used with other cards. At least with SB you can rely on the iGPU 
Edit: also the reason I won't buy a real Mac. I have little use for a laptop (loaned mine to my cousin for her graduation as I hadn't used it in 6 months) and my own desktop which has cost about 1200 EUR total by now (although most of that was 18 months ago) is still vastly superior to even the most expensive Macs, excluding the Mac Pro which is just ... yeah.
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Saner
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Location: Uk
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| Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2012 13:38 Post subject: |
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I dont see why you would install fglrx if you dont use 3D stuff, last time I used the radeonhd driver I found it pretty mature and good enough for most things (and it looks like it is still progressing well - http://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature )
But anyway, even something as simple as "glxgears -fullscreen" wont allow some to Alt + tab using fglrx.
But, the Open drivers for ATI cards are far far superior to the Nvidia ones, so its really hit and miss to what you want to do under linux.
But as I said, its driver support thats the real problem with *nix
| ragnarus wrote: |
I saw things like that in here and in other "woman problems" topics so...... Am I the only one that thinks some authorities needs to be alerted about Saner and him possibly being a rapist and/or kidnapper ? |
Saner is not being serious. Unless its the subject of Santa!
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2012 13:48 Post subject: |
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| Saner wrote: | | But as I said, its driver support thats the real problem with *nix |
I have a feeling that after the release of Windows 8, there will be a move toward " *nix ". The question is, will it be toward Lunix or toward that one specific derivative of BSD. |
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2012 14:28 Post subject: |
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| Saner wrote: | | I dont see why you would install fglrx if you dont use 3D stuff, last time I used the radeonhd driver I found it pretty mature and good enough for most things (and it looks like it is still progressing well - http://www.x.org/wiki/RadeonFeature ) |
Multimonitor sucks with the open driver
| Saner wrote: | | But anyway, even something as simple as "glxgears -fullscreen" wont allow some to Alt + tab using fglrx. |
Just tried, works fine apart from the fact that it goes fullscreen across BOTH monitors (even when using -display)
I can alt-tab at least, doesn't make anything crash
 Spoiler: | paul@paul-ubuntu:~$ glxinfo|more
name of display: :0
display: :0 screen: 0
direct rendering: Yes
server glx vendor string: ATI
server glx version string: 1.4
server glx extensions:
GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_EXT_texture_from_pixmap,
GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_OML_swap_method,
GLX_SGI_make_current_read, GLX_SGI_swap_control, GLX_SGIS_multisample,
GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, GLX_SGIX_pbuffer, GLX_SGIX_visual_select_group
client glx vendor string: ATI
client glx version string: 1.4
...
OpenGL vendor string: ATI Technologies Inc.
OpenGL renderer string: AMD Radeon HD 6900 Series
OpenGL version string: 4.1.11079 Compatibility Profile Context
OpenGL shading language version string: 4.10 |
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Saner
Posts: 6877
Location: Uk
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| Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2012 14:35 Post subject: |
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Maybe its been fixed, it was 12 months ago (give or take) when I last had an ATI card.
I didnt know about Multi-Monitor, and the power saving is better with fglrx too (again from 12 months ago)
It has its place, and if it works I have no doubt its a decent driver, it just seems hit and miss for most.
| ragnarus wrote: |
I saw things like that in here and in other "woman problems" topics so...... Am I the only one that thinks some authorities needs to be alerted about Saner and him possibly being a rapist and/or kidnapper ? |
Saner is not being serious. Unless its the subject of Santa!
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Tue, 13th Mar 2012 14:51 Post subject: |
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Well like I said, almost all the issues I've seen across the web have been related to not removing the default crap properly. At least I can use my videocard with this, unlike OS X 
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garus
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| Posted: Sat, 17th Mar 2012 18:05 Post subject: |
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snip
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 17th Mar 2012 18:10 Post subject: |
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There are no bugs in OS X.
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garus
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| Posted: Sat, 17th Mar 2012 18:12 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sat, 17th Mar 2012 18:46 Post subject: I have left. |
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garus
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| Posted: Sat, 17th Mar 2012 18:50 Post subject: |
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snip
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Sat, 24th Mar 2012 11:35 Post subject: |
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Just to touch on this for Saner: AMD drivers for Linux are superior.
I've got the latest NVIDIA installed now (295.33 w/ GTX 680) and AMD has more options, better options, adds a launcher to launch the CP with root rights (which is required to updated xorg conf). Multi-monitor also works fine right out of the box with the AMD drivers, with the Nvidia driver it first turns the secondary monitor off and removes it from the list of connected monitors. Only after a reboot it reappears and you gotta enable it again, then it works - but the multi-monitor options are nowhere near what AMD offers.
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Saner
Posts: 6877
Location: Uk
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| Posted: Sat, 24th Mar 2012 12:17 Post subject: |
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hahahaha
I dont think we are ever going to agree on this one, I have had no end of problems with fglrx across multiple systems with different builds.
Whilst the nvidia blob is not faultless, I find it so far superior to ATI / AMD's offering its not even worth debating
| ragnarus wrote: |
I saw things like that in here and in other "woman problems" topics so...... Am I the only one that thinks some authorities needs to be alerted about Saner and him possibly being a rapist and/or kidnapper ? |
Saner is not being serious. Unless its the subject of Santa!
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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Location: 0100111001001100
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