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 Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 14:38 Post subject: Games with challenging AI |
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Among my main problems with single-player games is basically the stupidity of AI. They are very easy to outmaneuver, and they very rarely work in teams.
For example - playing through DE3(which was one of the best, if not the best of 2011) stealthily was simply cake. You could just observe for 2 seconds, and you already knew how to take down everyone in the room. They didn't adapt, they didn't get suspicious "like hey, where did the six of you go?", etc.
In most combat games, they don't flank, they just sit there waiting to die one by one. It's as if they're not there to survive, but to act predictable and die. The worst AI can be found in cover shooters, where they just stay in that on place in cover, popping out every now and then waiting to be killed. You don't have to wonder where they are, you don't have to wonder, what weapon they have, you don't have to wonder, when they'll pop up to shoot ...
Now, I know, that challenging AI would hinder the derps enjoyment, but fuck derps, it would increase my enjoyment. Heck, good AI would make so many worlds come alive. I WISH developers put more energy in to making good AI - it is not exactly rocket science, and we have the computing power available.
The last game, where the AI impressed me was FEAR. I also liked the AI in the UT series.
What games' AI did you like or find challenging?
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 14:56 Post subject: |
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I think thats the problem, they don't actually have the computing power yet to put realistic AI into fps games, at least yet. Fear's AI was just clever scripting tricks unfortunately. It's generally quite hard to find decent believable AI in real-time games. That behaves like a human. In turn based or strategy games though, AI fares better I think. However in those sort of games the AI also "cheats" in ways because it has to know all the players moves first in order to react to it..
Also developing a realistic AI would no doubt take up a hugh amount of a developers resources, at least to have one that reacts realistically without it being glaringly obvious it's artificial, which perhaps is another factor which holds back development.
One day it'll be nice to see games where AI is so advanced that when you do silly things in game.. like have a conversation with a character whilst standing on a table.. for the AI to be able to react to it in an appropriate manner.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 14:56 Post subject: |
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first fear on high difficulty level just as You mentioned.
Best god damn ai in fps ever
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 15:03 Post subject: |
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I don't understand how average AI has any relation to "derps". Was AI awesome five years ago?
I've never been impressed by any AI in any game, since after a couple of hours it always gets repetitive.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 15:19 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | I don't understand how average AI has any relation to "derps". Was AI awesome five years ago?
I've never been impressed by any AI in any game, since after a couple of hours it always gets repetitive. |
This is how I see it relating to derps.
Basically everything about games (all the way from board games to PC games) has to do with pattern recognition within a very well defined logical universe, having only a few basic axioms. The faster you recognize and exploit the patterns the better you are. If the patterns are easy to model for your brain, then more people can master it, games that are complex take more cognitive power or more time or both to master.
Challenging AI would mean reactive/adaptive AI, that is NOT repetitive. AI that you can't easily predict, and as such can't defeat using the same "rotation".
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 15:21 Post subject: |
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The AI in the old Rainbow Six games was good, but still random. They reacted to sounds, checked the area and wandered around. The positions on the map in SP and MP (terrorist hunt) was random, which made it challenging every time. The bad side was the uber reactiontime. Peaking around a corner and you got a headshot within a blink of a second OR they totally did nothing and were starring at a wall.
What about the AI in the Splinter Cell and Hitman series? Guess it's all scripted?!
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 15:27 Post subject: |
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the first FEAR game has probably the best AI i can think of of all time off the top of my head anyway, i guess this is probably the most obvious answer, so sorry about that, but it was actually a bit scary realizing the AI was starting to flank or retreat and regroup or dig in and all that stuff, nice to see AI that tries to strategize whether it's successful or not.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 15:28 Post subject: |
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I think you're expecting too much. I don't see reactive AI happening in the next five, maybe even ten years. Sure some attempts will be made, but I doubt anything will improve the heavily scripted and narrow AI we have now. The term "AI" is not rightfully used imo. There's no intelligence, just a bunch of scripting.
My coding talents are limited, but I don't think it's a computing power problem. The current approach is just 'wrong' imo. Sadly, we currently have no clue how to "free" (to a degree) an AI.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 15:31 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | I think you're expecting too much. I don't see reactive AI happening in the next five, maybe even ten years. Sure some attempts will be made, but I doubt anything will improve the heavily scripted and narrow AI we have now. The term "AI" is not rightfully used imo. There's no intelligence, just a bunch of scripting.
My coding talents are limited, but I don't think it's a computing power problem. The current approach is just 'wrong' imo. Sadly, we currently have no clue how to "free" (to a degree) an AI. |
yup, very good point, we don't actually get enemies more often than a lot of people think, what do we get?
suicidal lemmings with guns and numbers and nothing else on their side.
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garus
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 16:11 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:24; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 18:13 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | I think you're expecting too much. I don't see reactive AI happening in the next five, maybe even ten years. Sure some attempts will be made, but I doubt anything will improve the heavily scripted and narrow AI we have now. The term "AI" is not rightfully used imo. There's no intelligence, just a bunch of scripting.
My coding talents are limited, but I don't think it's a computing power problem. The current approach is just 'wrong' imo. Sadly, we currently have no clue how to "free" (to a degree) an AI. |
Well, reactive can mean a lot of things, and in some games (strategies), we already have reacting AI.
First off, yes, I know that we could argue a lot about the definition of AI, and how what we have in games is not really an AI, or in which case it is, or not. So let's just call it AI, we know, what we're talking about.
I don't want to get in to the algorithmic part of it (I do work in IT, and in fact studied AI during my master's).
All I'm saying is it wouldn't be hard for coders to program their entities to observe a wider range of triggers and plan accordingly based on the findings. To give a few very simple examples: if they see the main player wielding a shotgun, don't go close. If the main player is using a sniper, and usually stays prolonged in one spot - then go try a sneak attack... etc.
How awesome would it be, if you get backstabbed in a sinlge player shooter (and not via cheats, by spawning enemies right behind you.
Truth is, games could be made SO much more enjoyable, if NPCs had better programming.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 18:17 Post subject: |
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Worst ai is in sneak games.
You kill a guard. Other guards go crazy over his body for 2 minutes and then go back to their patroling routine.... while in real world they would shut down whole building, start panicking, search the building for as long as they find out what happened.
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 18:20 Post subject: |
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| KillerCrocker wrote: | Worst ai is in sneak games.
You kill a guard. Other guards go crazy over his body for 2 minutes and then go back to their patroling routine.... while in real world they would shut down whole building, start panicking, search the building for as long as they find out what happened. |
Yeah, but that would make the game impossible to finish - you'd had to reload all the time. But you do have a point. Once a body had been found, imho, there's no going back to the relaxing routine until the next "level".
What I find oddest of all, is how nobody finds it odd, that their friends no longer respond on the radio. They just all go silent. Ok, this I could still live with. But what about multiple people patrolling the same room, let's say 5 of them. And we're down to the last one: does he not wonder, where the other 4 have gone without saying a word? 
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vurt
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 18:25 Post subject: |
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Hitman Blood Money and Splinter Cell Chaos Theory had kinda good AI/stealth. But as for shooters I was impressed by the first FEAR game and the first Half Life and its two expansions.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 18:36 Post subject: |
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AI War had interesting AI.
Which game has the best AI? One of those chess engines, and how interesting is that? Pretty dull.
Epsilon: Game is great btw, I love it, so far it's a definite goty. It's remarkable how much has changed since the beta, stardock have been working their asses off, and it shows.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 19:30 Post subject: |
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fear3 with the trigger protection on 
was challenging as hell;)
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noflip
Posts: 765
Location: Sofia, BG
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 19:44 Post subject: |
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you go argue with 100 hydralisks comming from all directions about their AI...
in other words for me AI doesn`t have to be smart, it has to be effective in the given situation.
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Guyver
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Location: Bunga-Bun... err Italy.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 19:50 Post subject: |
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supcom 1 for RTS
fear for FPS
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Neon
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 19:54 Post subject: |
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Fear for FPS
Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory for stealth/tpp.
I always liked how in SCCT when you got discovered, there were 3 "stages" of the alarm. Firstly they'd get helmets(I think) so that headshots wouldn't work that well anymore, after the second one they put body armor on, and after the third one they disregard their current patrol route and fortify positions.
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briangw
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 20:25 Post subject: |
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Civilization series and the Total War series. Nuff said.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 21:57 Post subject: |
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Best AI in FPS are easy Half life 1 for me, or maybe fear.
But as HL1 came long before so i think i take HL1 as nr one.
They enemy soldiers really moved in teams and moved on different sides covering each other, and used nades smart when you had cover, and then flanked you/stormed in.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 22:05 Post subject: |
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Fear was a brilliant game.
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 22:18 Post subject: |
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Half Life 1 indeed positively "shocked" me with it's AI, so ahead of its times.
But also Fear, Black & White, Swat 4, the TW series, SC:Chaos Theory and The Sims quite impressed me the first time that I played them.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 22:19 Post subject: |
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| briangw wrote: | | Civilization series and the Total War series. Nuff said. |
honestly... you might have a good point for one huge glaring flaw in your logic.
if you set the AI up in a sandbox skirmish gametype with no opponents, it would probably play almost literally the same as if it had opponents, all i'm saying is a lot of the time RTS AI is just a fancy automated city building algorithm.
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dsergei
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 22:41 Post subject: |
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| Neon wrote: | Fear for FPS
Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory for stealth/tpp.
I always liked how in SCCT when you got discovered, there were 3 "stages" of the alarm. Firstly they'd get helmets(I think) so that headshots wouldn't work that well anymore, after the second one they put body armor on, and after the third one they disregard their current patrol route and fortify positions. |
I agree with FEAR although it was also "scripted" somewhat - as in it didn't always react to your actions but just did certain maneuvers regardless of what you did - you could study the soldiers and throw nades or even shoot exactly where and when they were going to be - because of a certain patern in cover/environment.
But not with SCCT. It was extremely limited and dumb as fuck. Obviously many of the limits were set there for gameplay purposes. But I remember one particular example that made me cringe - on the ship there was a room with a light switch and 3 guards sitting around the table. You could literaly just turn off the switch lure and kill them off one by one. At the same time on the same level there was a special script for Laserda that made the guards check up on him if he didn't respond or went missing.
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| Posted: Wed, 25th Jan 2012 23:09 Post subject: |
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Neon
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real-life is often not what computer games tries to mimic..
