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 Posted: Tue, 25th Oct 2011 14:41 Post subject: Logic |
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Is logic a limitation?
Is it our way of trying to maintain sanity as a means of survival?
If the universe is illogical and it can't be understood - is it possible to exist and be comfortable with such a realisation?
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TSR69
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| Posted: Tue, 25th Oct 2011 15:05 Post subject: |
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Kinda abstract, with both mathematics and logic it is possible to proof that both are limited in their use.
Formerly known as iconized
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| Posted: Tue, 25th Oct 2011 15:46 Post subject: |
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If you want to know more about logic, read Gödels books... He's like the god of logic xD
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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TSR69
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Location: Republic of the Seven United Provinces
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| Posted: Tue, 25th Oct 2011 16:36 Post subject: |
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| iconized wrote: | @dingo_d: You remember that discussion in the Hawking on god-thread?  |
Oh, we don't want to go down that road again xD
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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dsergei
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couleur
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| Posted: Tue, 25th Oct 2011 18:18 Post subject: Re: Logic |
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| Casus wrote: | | Is logic a limitation? |
Logic is not a limitation, as long as it is seen as a tool to help understand existence. Logic, like mathematics can be constructed in different ways to apprehend different perceptions of existence. Logic is the sole reasonable way to apprehend existence though, obviously. It doesnt mean existence by itself is necessarily logical. Lets not forget that humanity applies logic and reason for an underlying will (will to dominate existence f.e.). Like Kant said, even a coold blooded murderer can have a very thorough logic by which he acts.
| Casus wrote: |
Is it our way of trying to maintain sanity as a means of survival? |
No, I think logic as a result of reason is a part of our way to comprehend existence. It is not the only way though. We also have intuition and instincts. But of course it is hard to speak about those as this analysis would be made by reason itself.
Even a very logical person can become insane, depending on his motivations. Motivations can be caused by innumerable things like traumas or pain. Those, in return, can be controlled by logic if one understands their causes and effects. So in a way, yes, logic can be used to maintain sanity. But it is not necessarily the only way.
| Casus wrote: |
If the universe is illogical and it can't be understood - is it possible to exist and be comfortable with such a realisation? |
Of course it is. For me it is even better this way, because if I knew the universe were completely understandable through logic, e.g. reasonable, then I'd be quite uncomfortable knowing that everything would be determined by an underlying logic. I much prefer the idea that every moment is new and that I or humanity will be able to make new discoveries every day. This means that existence itself remains sublime.
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TSR69
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Location: Republic of the Seven United Provinces
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| Posted: Tue, 25th Oct 2011 18:46 Post subject: |
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So how are you now?
Edit: The past is the past.
Last edited by TSR69 on Tue, 25th Oct 2011 18:48; edited 1 time in total
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garus
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| Posted: Tue, 25th Oct 2011 18:47 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:39; edited 1 time in total
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TSR69
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| Posted: Tue, 25th Oct 2011 18:52 Post subject: |
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Did you find some peace? You've been through a lot, whoever's fault it was, losing your family is not that easy. I hope you at some point took my advice.
Formerly known as iconized
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couleur
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| Posted: Tue, 25th Oct 2011 19:03 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: | | It's been a while since Casus flamed someone. |
My body is ready.
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| Posted: Tue, 25th Oct 2011 20:21 Post subject: |
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I've decided to be charming for a bit.
Once I've tamed everyone - I'll be getting the butter and initiate frictionless raping...
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couleur
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couleur
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| Posted: Wed, 26th Oct 2011 11:02 Post subject: |
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I agree with all that you said. What of my post is without foundation? I may be able to expand further. Also, I see no apparent contradiction between our posts.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Wed, 26th Oct 2011 11:24 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | | I agree with all that you said. What of my post is without foundation? I may be able to expand further. Also, I see no apparent contradiction between our posts. |
There's no "contradiction" in our posts, but it seems to me you're more "comfortable" holding your position than I am. As we seem to "share" the position, there's no contradiction at all.
If I'm wrong, then I apologise - but the following two quotes seem to suggest that you hold your position with a sense of "security" that I can't manage myself:
| Quote: | | Logic is the sole reasonable way to apprehend existence though, obviously. |
| Quote: | | Of course it is. For me it is even better this way, because if I knew the universe were completely understandable through logic, e.g. reasonable, then I'd be quite uncomfortable knowing that everything would be determined by an underlying logic. I much prefer the idea that every moment is new and that I or humanity will be able to make new discoveries every day. This means that existence itself remains sublime. |
To me, making "new discoveries" every day isn't necessarily comforting. I sometimes see it as a sign of the possibility that everything we think we know is the illusion we've created due to our limitations - and that for every step we take towards "understanding" we actually just take another step in a circle of perpetual ignorance and "untruth".
The most beautiful thing in the world, to me, is the concept of truth. No matter what it is, and no matter how painful - that's what I consider true beauty. The problem, sadly, is that I don't know if I can ever see it or know it.
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couleur
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| Posted: Wed, 26th Oct 2011 21:29 Post subject: |
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I will say in advance, that the following text is of course something I had to analyse or interpret through reason and it therefor is possibly just another illusion, but consider this:
Take the smallest beeings, like insects. I give you one example (it is an example I give often, I took it from one of my favourite philosophers). There is this little insect, the Sitaris Muralis, which lays its eggs by the opening from beehives. Somehow it knows that the larva which come out of the eggs will jump on the backs of male bees. They will then jump from the male bee to the queen bee, while the male bees try to seed the queen bee. Then, they will accompany the queen bee into their nest and jump on the egg laid on the honey. They will first eat the egg and pay attention not to fall into the honey just yet, because they will most certainly die. They will first eat the egg and undergo a transformation, then they will be able to swim on the honey and eat it. Now, fully grown, they will try to get out of the hive and find a mate to couple with, and the whole process will begin anew.
All this happens without the larvae having to understand (reason) anything about what they are doing. Instinct just seems to somehow "know" (while "knowing" is obviously the bad word) what it has to do. There is some kind link between instinct and existence itself, which I cannot explain through reason.
As with every living beeing, I too have instincts and intuition, which link me to existence in a very intimate way. I believe I am part of this world. Reason somehow seems to separate me from it, but that separation is necessary so that we can create tools like logic or language that help us make use of the world. More complex animals do it in more primitive ways aswell. The problem ist though, that this tool , this reason is not meant to make me understand the whole of the universe because by definition reason separates us from the world as it objectifies it. But why should I feel bad about it?
I think most of the probelm lies in the fact that logic is the only reasonable way to comprehend existence but that neither existence nor ourselves are reasonable. Comprehension of existence means, making existence usable for us, it does not mean that we can really understand what the essence of existence or the universe really is. But as I said, that doesnt make me feel uncomfortable because I believe or feel, that I am part of it and linked to it somehow. And Logic or reason is the tool to make it become ever more useful to us, and vis-versa (I makes us useful to it aswell). Because the next question would undeniably be. Why am I here and why is there anything at all, while there could aswell be nothing. I believe that existence itself is the answer. It exists, and we exist, so we should make the best for it and ourselves. Now this last idea is obviously a moral one, and I know very well that it is a matter of belief. But since I dont have anything logical to guide me, I can only base my belief on the feelings I have about life.
So finally, I think it comes down to what you believe. Logic will not give you an answer, as it is merely a tool for you.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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Frant
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| Posted: Thu, 27th Oct 2011 07:16 Post subject: |
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Logic is a tool.
Humans aren't 100% logical.
Creativity, imagination, inventiveness etc. aren't based solely on logic.
Using logic in the appropriate situations combined with non-logical approaches in other situations (or together) in the right proportions is the way that works best.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Thu, 27th Oct 2011 10:13 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | I will say in advance, that the following text is of course something I had to analyse or interpret through reason and it therefor is possibly just another illusion, but consider this:
Take the smallest beeings, like insects. I give you one example (it is an example I give often, I took it from one of my favourite philosophers). There is this little insect, the Sitaris Muralis, which lays its eggs by the opening from beehives. Somehow it knows that the larva which come out of the eggs will jump on the backs of male bees. They will then jump from the male bee to the queen bee, while the male bees try to seed the queen bee. Then, they will accompany the queen bee into their nest and jump on the egg laid on the honey. They will first eat the egg and pay attention not to fall into the honey just yet, because they will most certainly die. They will first eat the egg and undergo a transformation, then they will be able to swim on the honey and eat it. Now, fully grown, they will try to get out of the hive and find a mate to couple with, and the whole process will begin anew.
All this happens without the larvae having to understand (reason) anything about what they are doing. Instinct just seems to somehow "know" (while "knowing" is obviously the bad word) what it has to do. There is some kind link between instinct and existence itself, which I cannot explain through reason.
As with every living beeing, I too have instincts and intuition, which link me to existence in a very intimate way. I believe I am part of this world. Reason somehow seems to separate me from it, but that separation is necessary so that we can create tools like logic or language that help us make use of the world. More complex animals do it in more primitive ways aswell. The problem ist though, that this tool , this reason is not meant to make me understand the whole of the universe because by definition reason separates us from the world as it objectifies it. But why should I feel bad about it?
I think most of the probelm lies in the fact that logic is the only reasonable way to comprehend existence but that neither existence nor ourselves are reasonable. Comprehension of existence means, making existence usable for us, it does not mean that we can really understand what the essence of existence or the universe really is. But as I said, that doesnt make me feel uncomfortable because I believe or feel, that I am part of it and linked to it somehow. And Logic or reason is the tool to make it become ever more useful to us, and vis-versa (I makes us useful to it aswell). Because the next question would undeniably be. Why am I here and why is there anything at all, while there could aswell be nothing. I believe that existence itself is the answer. It exists, and we exist, so we should make the best for it and ourselves. Now this last idea is obviously a moral one, and I know very well that it is a matter of belief. But since I dont have anything logical to guide me, I can only base my belief on the feelings I have about life.
So finally, I think it comes down to what you believe. Logic will not give you an answer, as it is merely a tool for you. |
I take your meaning, but it's still a sign of you having a lot more "faith" in the general "order of the universe" and you take these small natural "miracles" to mean that there's some kind of overall meaningful structure.
That's the kind of faith I don't always have - and for every little miracle of nature, there's a tragic lack of harmony or disease. There's also still the possibility that what we perceive is flawed and manipulated by our own capacity for comprehension. So while we see order and harmony in some parts of nature, it could just be a construct of our own making - trying to make it into something we can handle.
Not sure I can make it anymore clear than that.
But I certainly envy those who can have faith in these things without the kind of doubt that I have to face.
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| Posted: Thu, 27th Oct 2011 12:26 Post subject: |
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| Casus wrote: | There's also still the possibility that what we perceive is flawed and manipulated by our own capacity for comprehension. So while we see order and harmony in some parts of nature, it could just be a construct of our own making - trying to make it into something we can handle.
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I don't think its a question of possibility whether what we perceive is flawed and manipulated by our comprehension, because it is. It's not necessarily because we have a lack of comprehension, but because we need to value every single thing, whether or not "value" actually exists in terms of "absolute truth". Everything that we value and everything that we value by some kind of (thought up) measurement, is our only option to give it a place in our vision of the world. I think it's impossible to understand the "absolute truth" without knowing its "rules", if there actually are any.
Then again, it shouldn't really matter whether or not we are capable of obtaining that "absolute truth", because in any case, you're already started making your own, build upon the values that you've created.
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chiv
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| Posted: Thu, 27th Oct 2011 12:54 Post subject: |
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How can the universe be illogical if everything that happens is gods will?
Check and mate.
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| Posted: Thu, 27th Oct 2011 14:00 Post subject: |
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| suil wrote: | | Casus wrote: | There's also still the possibility that what we perceive is flawed and manipulated by our own capacity for comprehension. So while we see order and harmony in some parts of nature, it could just be a construct of our own making - trying to make it into something we can handle.
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I don't think its a question of possibility whether what we perceive is flawed and manipulated by our comprehension, because it is. It's not necessarily because we have a lack of comprehension, but because we need to value every single thing, whether or not "value" actually exists in terms of "absolute truth". Everything that we value and everything that we value by some kind of (thought up) measurement, is our only option to give it a place in our vision of the world. I think it's impossible to understand the "absolute truth" without knowing its "rules", if there actually are any.
Then again, it shouldn't really matter whether or not we are capable of obtaining that "absolute truth", because in any case, you're already started making your own, build upon the values that you've created. |
I think it matters whether "our truth" is truth or just a construct.
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| Posted: Thu, 27th Oct 2011 14:07 Post subject: |
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What is truth? People keep talking about "absolute truths". What is an absolute truth?
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| Posted: Thu, 27th Oct 2011 14:17 Post subject: |
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| Mister_s wrote: | | What is truth? People keep talking about "absolute truths". What is an absolute truth? |
An assumption as long as we have no way of being sure, which would seem to be forever.
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TSR69
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| Posted: Thu, 27th Oct 2011 14:23 Post subject: |
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A practical approach, stop wondering about stuff in which we are to little to comprehend it and start living a meaningful life.
Rephrase: Stop wondering about stuff that belittles our comprehension and start living a meaningful life.
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| Posted: Thu, 27th Oct 2011 14:28 Post subject: |
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| iconized wrote: | | A practical approach, stop wondering about stuff in which we are to little to comprehend it and start living a meaningful life. |
So most researchers are morons without a meaningful life?
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garus
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| Posted: Thu, 27th Oct 2011 14:30 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:39; edited 1 time in total
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