I have watched it twice and I have to say that, I had certain problems with concepts likethe Venus Project when I watched Zeitgeist Addendum 2 years ago, but I have to admit that the detailed manner in which everything is present here appears logically consistent to me as a whole.
But please, for the sake of argument, if you watched it, discuss it.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
I agreed with all that is said in it basically. Monetary system just isn't sustainable and will crash eventually. Altho I kinda think that it won't end in peace :\
The Venus project could be achievable only if we successfully terraformed Mars (and 'reignite' its core so it could have magnetic field again). Or it could work but only in the very distant future.
For it to work the education and the parenting should change, and the way it is today that's not happening...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson
chiv wrote:
thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found.
I wasn't aware this was supposed to be a comedy...
all conspiracy theories always are.
Conspiracy theories?
Your informed opinion is always valuable, specially considering that you haven't even watch the documentary, furthermore, there are no conspiracies being addressed in the movie, only factual truths that everyone knows and chooses to ignore.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
Ah not this shit again. Will watch when I get the time. Always appreciate good comedy.
And by comedy you obviously mean the ridiculous manner in which our system operates.
Naw. The fact that people can take such ridiculous shit as this video and its predecessors seriously.
Well, regarding that, people do have a propensity to accept ridiculous concepts seriously, example of this being exactly our political and economical system, so it all resumes to how ridiculous something is, and sincerely, nothing can top the current system in this regard.
The matter of fact is, we do need to change collectively and individually, no matter if we accept Peter Joseph's solutions or some solutions out of Anarchistic theory, or any other system or ideology of social and economic interaction.
The fact that we need to drastically change is a fact in on itself.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
And by comedy you obviously mean the ridiculous manner in which our system operates.
Naw. The fact that people can take such ridiculous shit as this video and its predecessors seriously.
Well, regarding that, people do have a propensity to accept ridiculous concepts seriously, example of this being exactly our political and economical system, so it all resumes to how ridiculous something is, and sincerely, nothing can top the current system in this regard.
The matter of fact is, we do need to change collectively and individually, no matter if we accept Peter Joseph's solutions or some solutions out of Anarchistic theory, or any other system or ideology of social and economic interaction.
The fact that we need to drastically change is a fact in on itself.
I don't agree. I believe the world as it is today is moving in the correct direction -> Democratization and free market economies. No need for any radical change, and certainly no anarchy, thankyourverymuch.
Naw. The fact that people can take such ridiculous shit as this video and its predecessors seriously.
Well, regarding that, people do have a propensity to accept ridiculous concepts seriously, example of this being exactly our political and economical system, so it all resumes to how ridiculous something is, and sincerely, nothing can top the current system in this regard.
The matter of fact is, we do need to change collectively and individually, no matter if we accept Peter Joseph's solutions or some solutions out of Anarchistic theory, or any other system or ideology of social and economic interaction.
The fact that we need to drastically change is a fact in on itself.
I don't agree. I believe the world as it is today is moving in the correct direction -> Democratization and free market economies. No need for any radical change, and certainly no anarchy, thankyourverymuch.
But that is the problem, this is only your opinion, and very likely because you are supporting your opinion in incomplete information that you either choose to ignore or haven't assimilated in the first place.
If you take all relevant information into account, you can only arrive at 2 conclusions, either you conclude that "my country will take by force all resources available to accommodate me during my lifetime and fuck everyone outside my country and fuck the future generations", or you conclude that, "the current path that we're on needs to change if humanity as a whole is to enjoy the same quality of life that you presently enjoy in your country for many other generations", those are the 2 only logical conclusions that you can arrive when considering all relevant information about our condition.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
Well, regarding that, people do have a propensity to accept ridiculous concepts seriously, example of this being exactly our political and economical system, so it all resumes to how ridiculous something is, and sincerely, nothing can top the current system in this regard.
The matter of fact is, we do need to change collectively and individually, no matter if we accept Peter Joseph's solutions or some solutions out of Anarchistic theory, or any other system or ideology of social and economic interaction.
The fact that we need to drastically change is a fact in on itself.
I don't agree. I believe the world as it is today is moving in the correct direction -> Democratization and free market economies. No need for any radical change, and certainly no anarchy, thankyourverymuch.
But that is the problem, this is only your opinion, and very likely because you are supporting your opinion in incomplete information that you either choose to ignore or haven't assimilated in the first place.
If you take all relevant information into account, you can only arrive at 2 conclusions, either you conclude that "my country will take by force all resources available to accommodate me during my lifetime and fuck everyone outside my country and fuck the future generations", or you conclude that, "the current path that we're on needs to change if humanity as a whole is to enjoy the same quality of life that you presently enjoy in your country for many other generations", those are the 2 only logical conclusions that you can arrive when considering all relevant information about our condition.
I disagree. I believe that economic cooperation/trade can substitute force in international dealings over resources.
I don't agree. I believe the world as it is today is moving in the correct direction -> Democratization and free market economies. No need for any radical change, and certainly no anarchy, thankyourverymuch.
But that is the problem, this is only your opinion, and very likely because you are supporting your opinion in incomplete information that you either choose to ignore or haven't assimilated in the first place.
If you take all relevant information into account, you can only arrive at 2 conclusions, either you conclude that "my country will take by force all resources available to accommodate me during my lifetime and fuck everyone outside my country and fuck the future generations", or you conclude that, "the current path that we're on needs to change if humanity as a whole is to enjoy the same quality of life that you presently enjoy in your country for many other generations", those are the 2 only logical conclusions that you can arrive when considering all relevant information about our condition.
I disagree. I believe that economic cooperation/trade can substitute force in international dealings over resources.
And what about consumption? (and you really should see the facts that the movie touches on this issue alone)
Basically it goes something like this:
Economic growth relies on a continued growth in consumption of natural and man made resources.
The higher the demand, the most supply and production tries to keep up, but since all resources on this planet come from a limited supply, some of them take millions of years to be replenish and some will never be substituted with current knowledge, any growth in consumption (which is what triggers economic growth) will always be temporary, will only make us spend resources that we can not substitute for millions of years.
Hence what I mentioned before, you cannot believe in eternal economic growth because it would require infinite resources, since resources are not infinite, but rather limited, economic growth is always temporary and will always affect other regions and/or future generations.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
But that is the problem, this is only your opinion, and very likely because you are supporting your opinion in incomplete information that you either choose to ignore or haven't assimilated in the first place.
If you take all relevant information into account, you can only arrive at 2 conclusions, either you conclude that "my country will take by force all resources available to accommodate me during my lifetime and fuck everyone outside my country and fuck the future generations", or you conclude that, "the current path that we're on needs to change if humanity as a whole is to enjoy the same quality of life that you presently enjoy in your country for many other generations", those are the 2 only logical conclusions that you can arrive when considering all relevant information about our condition.
I disagree. I believe that economic cooperation/trade can substitute force in international dealings over resources.
And what about consumption? (and you really should see the facts that the movie touches on this issue alone)
Basically it goes something like this:
Economic growth relies on a continued growth in consumption of natural and man made resources.
The higher the demand, the most supply and production tries to keep up, but since all resources on this planet come from a limited supply, some of them take millions of years to be replenish and some will never be substituted with current knowledge, any growth in consumption (which is what triggers economic growth) will always be temporary, will only make us spend resources that we can not substitute for millions of years.
Hence what I mentioned before, you cannot believe in eternal economic growth because it would require infinite resources, since resources are not infinite, but rather limited, economic growth is always temporary and will always affect other regions and/or future generations.
As certain resources are depleted, their prices will rise to the point that it is no longer feasible to pay for them. At this point we will have enough economic incentive to abandon said resources entirely, or invent economically feasible alternatives to them.
I disagree. I believe that economic cooperation/trade can substitute force in international dealings over resources.
And what about consumption? (and you really should see the facts that the movie touches on this issue alone)
Basically it goes something like this:
Economic growth relies on a continued growth in consumption of natural and man made resources.
The higher the demand, the most supply and production tries to keep up, but since all resources on this planet come from a limited supply, some of them take millions of years to be replenish and some will never be substituted with current knowledge, any growth in consumption (which is what triggers economic growth) will always be temporary, will only make us spend resources that we can not substitute for millions of years.
Hence what I mentioned before, you cannot believe in eternal economic growth because it would require infinite resources, since resources are not infinite, but rather limited, economic growth is always temporary and will always affect other regions and/or future generations.
As certain resources are depleted, their prices will rise to the point that it is no longer feasible to pay for them. At this point we will have enough economic incentive to abandon said resources entirely, or invent economically feasible alternatives to them.
Resources can be anything, from our computers, to oil, to water, etc.
So, what would we do when nobody could afford something as essential as water for example? (and this abstraction lies within the realm of possibilities)
Even when you consider that the depletion of oil is probably half a century away, and practically all market niches rely on oil in some form, when nobody can afford it, it will literally strangle the functioning of most major aspects of modern society.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
And what about consumption? (and you really should see the facts that the movie touches on this issue alone)
Basically it goes something like this:
Economic growth relies on a continued growth in consumption of natural and man made resources.
The higher the demand, the most supply and production tries to keep up, but since all resources on this planet come from a limited supply, some of them take millions of years to be replenish and some will never be substituted with current knowledge, any growth in consumption (which is what triggers economic growth) will always be temporary, will only make us spend resources that we can not substitute for millions of years.
Hence what I mentioned before, you cannot believe in eternal economic growth because it would require infinite resources, since resources are not infinite, but rather limited, economic growth is always temporary and will always affect other regions and/or future generations.
As certain resources are depleted, their prices will rise to the point that it is no longer feasible to pay for them. At this point we will have enough economic incentive to abandon said resources entirely, or invent economically feasible alternatives to them.
Resources can be anything, from our computers, to oil, to water, etc.
So, what would we do when nobody could afford something as essential as water for example? (and this abstraction lies within the realm of possibilities)
Even when you consider that the depletion of oil is probably half a century away, and practically all market niches rely on oil in some form, when nobody can afford it, it will literally strangle the functioning of most major aspects of modern society.
We are not in danger of depleting our water supply anytime soon. If someone cannot afford life's necessities (such as in Africa, where they don't have drinkable water or food) the people will either work to improve their conditions (for their survival relies upon it), move to somewhere where the conditions are actually livable. In the interim they can be propped up by charity from rich countries.
Oil will not be depleted in the next 50 or 100 years. This is a common misconception that is commonly hyped up by the media
Last edited by tainted4ever on Fri, 28th Jan 2011 00:37; edited 1 time in total
I disagree. I believe that economic cooperation/trade can substitute force in international dealings over resources.
And what about consumption? (and you really should see the facts that the movie touches on this issue alone)
Basically it goes something like this:
Economic growth relies on a continued growth in consumption of natural and man made resources.
The higher the demand, the most supply and production tries to keep up, but since all resources on this planet come from a limited supply, some of them take millions of years to be replenish and some will never be substituted with current knowledge, any growth in consumption (which is what triggers economic growth) will always be temporary, will only make us spend resources that we can not substitute for millions of years.
Hence what I mentioned before, you cannot believe in eternal economic growth because it would require infinite resources, since resources are not infinite, but rather limited, economic growth is always temporary and will always affect other regions and/or future generations.
As certain resources are depleted, their prices will rise to the point that it is no longer feasible to pay for them. At this point we will have enough economic incentive to abandon said resources entirely, or invent economically feasible alternatives to them.
Yeah, sure you can grow sth artificially, but what on the effects on the Earth itself? Not to mention that in the future (and this movie addresses this also) you'll have no need for workers. Even now automation is dominating the industries.
If you have no need for workers, you get all these unemployed ppl. They won't have the money to buy basic things like food. Not only that, they are also the one who are spending the money. And if they don't have anything to spend, the whole monetary system falls apart.
This is why the current 'free market' system is bad and basically doomed...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson
chiv wrote:
thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found.
And what about consumption? (and you really should see the facts that the movie touches on this issue alone)
Basically it goes something like this:
Economic growth relies on a continued growth in consumption of natural and man made resources.
The higher the demand, the most supply and production tries to keep up, but since all resources on this planet come from a limited supply, some of them take millions of years to be replenish and some will never be substituted with current knowledge, any growth in consumption (which is what triggers economic growth) will always be temporary, will only make us spend resources that we can not substitute for millions of years.
Hence what I mentioned before, you cannot believe in eternal economic growth because it would require infinite resources, since resources are not infinite, but rather limited, economic growth is always temporary and will always affect other regions and/or future generations.
As certain resources are depleted, their prices will rise to the point that it is no longer feasible to pay for them. At this point we will have enough economic incentive to abandon said resources entirely, or invent economically feasible alternatives to them.
Yeah, sure you can grow sth artificially, but what on the effects on the Earth itself? Not to mention that in the future (and this movie addresses this also) you'll have no need for workers. Even now automation is dominating the industries.
If you have no need for workers, you get all these unemployed ppl. They won't have the money to buy basic things like food. Not only that, they are also the one who are spending the money. And if they don't have anything to spend, the whole monetary system falls apart.
This is why the current 'free market' system is bad and basically doomed...
This is the same argument the Luddites made hundreds of years ago. And yet here we are today, alive and well
As certain resources are depleted, their prices will rise to the point that it is no longer feasible to pay for them. At this point we will have enough economic incentive to abandon said resources entirely, or invent economically feasible alternatives to them.
Yeah, sure you can grow sth artificially, but what on the effects on the Earth itself? Not to mention that in the future (and this movie addresses this also) you'll have no need for workers. Even now automation is dominating the industries.
If you have no need for workers, you get all these unemployed ppl. They won't have the money to buy basic things like food. Not only that, they are also the one who are spending the money. And if they don't have anything to spend, the whole monetary system falls apart.
This is why the current 'free market' system is bad and basically doomed...
This is the same argument the Luddites made hundreds of years ago. And yet here we are today, alive and well
Yes, our social class is alive and well, those below us are poorer and with a greater scarcity of resources than what they had in the 1800's.
As I mentioned before it all traces back to those 2 conclusions, "let's exploit our social status and our condition and fuck everyone else" or "let's work to bring some human dignity at those which have been stolen of it"
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
Yeah, sure you can grow sth artificially, but what on the effects on the Earth itself? Not to mention that in the future (and this movie addresses this also) you'll have no need for workers. Even now automation is dominating the industries.
If you have no need for workers, you get all these unemployed ppl. They won't have the money to buy basic things like food. Not only that, they are also the one who are spending the money. And if they don't have anything to spend, the whole monetary system falls apart.
This is why the current 'free market' system is bad and basically doomed...
This is the same argument the Luddites made hundreds of years ago. And yet here we are today, alive and well
Yes, our social class is alive and well, those below us are poorer and with a greater scarcity of resources than what they had in the 1800's.
This is the same argument the Luddites made hundreds of years ago. And yet here we are today, alive and well
Yes, our social class is alive and well, those below us are poorer and with a greater scarcity of resources than what they had in the 1800's.
This is an outright falsehood.
I'm referring to regions outside the modern western world, regions like the poorer countries on Africa for example, which have been exploited by the west greatly in the past century and suffer from terrible scarcity only because of us...
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
Yes, our social class is alive and well, those below us are poorer and with a greater scarcity of resources than what they had in the 1800's.
This is an outright falsehood.
I'm referring to regions outside the modern western world, regions like the poorer countries on Africa for example, which have been exploited by the west greatly in the past century and suffer from terrible scarcity only because of us...
first zeitgeist and the whole loose change is all bull shit. Mainly because it's structured like a michael moore documentary. tidbits of truth layered with layers and layers of things 'certain' people don't really want to hear but will and they'll believe it because their minds are fragile. f9/11 was such a bull shit thing same with his other docs. Entertaining at best. Zeitgeist and loose change and alike are entertaining but not in the least credible. Trying to expose the truth by spreading rumors with 'factoids' isn't informative. It gets conspiracy theorists riled up because it's what they always wanted to say and wanted people to hear but never had a voice and now a movie with their tinfoil hat ideas gets famous and ooooooo you don't believe it you're a sheep and you suck and you follow the system and you're blind... ARRRGH!!
Entertaining to see the loons. Not at all informative unless you let your brain melt a few...
If there was a credible doc ala zeitgeist... i'd watch it and praise.
I'm referring to regions outside the modern western world, regions like the poorer countries on Africa for example, which have been exploited by the west greatly in the past century and suffer from terrible scarcity only because of us...
And yet this is slowly changing for the better.
Yes, it is, presently, but what will happens when we ourselves begin to suffer from the same scarcity, like within the next 50 years when Oil begins to be unaffordable, do you still think we will still think that this present attitude will remain?
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
I'm referring to regions outside the modern western world, regions like the poorer countries on Africa for example, which have been exploited by the west greatly in the past century and suffer from terrible scarcity only because of us...
And yet this is slowly changing for the better.
Yes, it is, presently, but what will happens when we ourselves begin to suffer from the same scarcity, like within the next 50 years when Oil begins to be unaffordable, do you still think we will still think that this present attitude will remain?
Then we will adapt to alternatives to oil and/or it will become economically feasible to drill for oil reserves that were previously unreachable and/or we will modify our current systems and ways of life to reduce our dependence of oil (improved public transportation, ride sharing, bicycles etc...).
It will hardly be a cataclysmic event.
Yes, to directly answer your question, I believe our current attitude will remain.
first zeitgeist and the whole loose change is all bull shit. Mainly because it's structured like a michael moore documentary. tidbits of truth layered with layers and layers of things 'certain' people don't really want to hear but will and they'll believe it because their minds are fragile. f9/11 was such a bull shit thing same with his other docs. Entertaining at best. Zeitgeist and loose change and alike are entertaining but not in the least credible. Trying to expose the truth by spreading rumors with 'factoids' isn't informative. It gets conspiracy theorists riled up because it's what they always wanted to say and wanted people to hear but never had a voice and now a movie with their tinfoil hat ideas gets famous and ooooooo you don't believe it you're a sheep and you suck and you follow the system and you're blind... ARRRGH!!
Entertaining to see the loons. Not at all informative unless you let your brain melt a few...
If there was a credible doc ala zeitgeist... i'd watch it and praise.
I agree with you for the most part, aside from the religious discussion on the first Zeitgeist, everything else was bias and based on conspiracy theory.
But this latest documentary has nothing to do with the first, it shows facts and only facts being presented by the better part of the first 3/4 of it, you should see it before critically reject it.
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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