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LeoNatan
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 Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 05:37 Post subject: An interesting article... |
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| Quote: | The question posed, “will Microsoft introduce a new console next generation” stems from many devastating articles I’ve read concerning the Xbox division. Most recently a brief article by Ricardo Barrier indicating the loss of $130 million in Q4 with the recent posts of their numbers, and an article that was brought to my attention by blade206 that was posted two months ago by Roy Schestowitz stating how Microsoft is still operating at a loss.
The articles were a fascinating read and I found many of the comments to be intelligent. This one in particular was written by Miguel Zorro. I found this question and comment rather interesting.
” Even though the XBox360 is selling well, it’s difficult to see WHY Microsoft is in the console business. It doesn’t appear to tie into a larger strategy. If they’re taking a loss on it every generation, what’s the point? Even if it’s not selling as well, Sony used the PS3 to drive Blu-Ray adoption – that, to me, is a reason to continue. Nintendo is making money, so that one’s easy. What is Microsoft in it for? Does the XBox360 integrate with and drive sales of other Microsoft products in any way?”
Many have heard, read, and experienced the devastating reports and effects of the RROD, which are still taking place with the Microsoft Xbox 360 console. Let me be clear, the Red Ring Of Death is not occurring at the alarming rate as it was at launch, but as stated in Roy’s article “It’s not a resolved issue; it’s a design flaw.” Tom Bramwell wrote in his article that the failure rate was as high as 68 Percent not the 33% people were talking about and Microsoft new of the defect before the units were shipped. Once again the RROD is nowhere near those numbers now, but those numbers are unacceptable period!
In fairness to Microsoft, Sony is not doing to well at the moment either. They will be reporting a massive loss of 2.9 billion the first operating loss Sony has had in 14 years, but it does not state in this article how the games division account for this shortfall. (What is nice to read throughout the article is that with their restructuring and layoffs they won’t be cutting or making any layoffs in the games division. We will see how things look for Sony when they post their numbers the 30th of July.
The difference I see in the two consoles is not the games, because that is a personal preference to each individual game. No one can be better than the other in that category, so I tend to look at what either system is selling me as a consumer. On one end you have Kaz Hirai of Sony. I personally find him very cocky, but some of his statements can be defend able.
“The next generation doesn’t start until we say it does” -Kaz Hirai, Sony
Then you have the competition
“If you can’t make it good, at least make it look good.” -Bill Gates, Microsoft.
I do not find this statement defend able at all.
As far as the original question goes, “Will Microsoft introduce a new console next generation?” My personal opinion is, “I don’t think so.” With their games division continually to report a loss, I don’t think Microsoft will and can afford to continue to operate at a loss next cycle. Microsoft has done a fantastic job of marketing this cycle, but I feel that their not doing enough with and expanding on their first party games in order to survive. I believe they haven’t done enough with their first party that will lead them into the future and I don’t believe one can survive off of third party alone. I don’t see Microsoft having a “True” exclusive line-up because of “Games for Windows” or “multiplats” and neither Microsoft nor Sony has stated that they will be introducing another system.
I think after this life cycle is over Microsoft will focus solely on their software and operating system. They have only commented on their longevity in out lasting the Playstation 3, but nothing in regards about making another console. |
http://www.gamesonsmash.com/?p=8164
The reason I put this here, is I want to discuss why is MS developing a console if they are in a constant loss from the start? Why keep pushing it if they fail to see profit. Wouldn't it better for everyone, consumers and Microsoft themselves, if they were to focus on the OS and make it better for games, and push the PC as their gaming platform? |
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Pey
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 05:55 Post subject: |
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Oh, if they were behind the GFW brand like they are behind the 360 one, no one would even think about piracy on the PC, just like no one mentions it about the 360; MS' legal team would eat them alive.
I think if they were to come with out with a rating system for PCs, that would guarantee a great experience (like for instance "if you buy this PC, you are guaranteed to be able to play games at 720p for 5 years"), people wouldn't be scared of PC gaming as they are today.
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crossmr
Posts: 2966
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 06:55 Post subject: |
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| iNatan wrote: | Oh, if they were behind the GFW brand like they are behind the 360 one, no one would even think about piracy on the PC, just like no one mentions it about the 360; MS' legal team would eat them alive.
I think if they were to come with out with a rating system for PCs, that would guarantee a great experience (like for instance "if you buy this PC, you are guaranteed to be able to play games at 720p for 5 years"), people wouldn't be scared of PC gaming as they are today. |
That's utterly impossible. The hardware changes each year and developers will take advantage of it.
The only way they could guarantee that is if they controlled the flow of hardware. 5 years in computer years is just too long to guarantee anything. 3 years ago I got this Dell m1710 with the best graphics card for laptops at the time. Geforce 7900GTX (I just got a 7950 GTX as a warranty replacement). Most games look spiffy still and its only now starting to show its age a little bit. If at the time I'd bought a desktop with an 8800GTX, I could probably squeeze another year out of it until games start to drag. I should say my laptop can play GTAIV at reasonable settings 1280xsomething or other with medium on quite a few things. I play Fallout 3 with high on everything except water at 1900x1220. I always turn bloom and HDR stuff off.
You might say that 8800 GTX would still be good after 5 years if you accept that you might have to run those brand new games at low resolutions/other low settings
The only way you're going to get 5 year longevity out of your machine with no upgrades is to buy absolute top of the line stuff. The top graphics card, the best processor you can find (something quadcore), as much ram as you can jam in it, and the fastest hard drive you can find (I think they got 15,000 RPMs available now for a reasonable price)
But you'd have to accept that approaching the end you're going to be turning stuff down.
If you want to keep playing games with good settings, you might reasonably consider a 3 year cycle of some upgrades.
After 3 years upgrade your graphics card, and maybe your processor
if you get a quad core now, with lots of ram (which is cheap) in 3 years the only thing you may have to upgrade is the video card. With prices dropping on those, we don't have to think about the $800 video card like we did when the 8800 GTX was new, and instead think about new cards being around $400.
So buy the big machine now and in 3 years you can drop $400 more on a video card if you want absolute performance. 3 years after that you can consider replacing the whole thing but maybe now. In 6 years a quadcore and 6 GBs of ram might still be enough.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 07:01 Post subject: |
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Console gaming is dying. Only Nintendo will probably push through with a next gen console.
No way Sony is making a PS4 in the next 5 years. Same for Microsoft. lol
Gustave the Steel
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 07:25 Post subject: |
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| crossmr wrote: | | iNatan wrote: | Oh, if they were behind the GFW brand like they are behind the 360 one, no one would even think about piracy on the PC, just like no one mentions it about the 360; MS' legal team would eat them alive.
I think if they were to come with out with a rating system for PCs, that would guarantee a great experience (like for instance "if you buy this PC, you are guaranteed to be able to play games at 720p for 5 years"), people wouldn't be scared of PC gaming as they are today. |
That's utterly impossible. The hardware changes each year and developers will take advantage of it.
The only way they could guarantee that is if they controlled the flow of hardware. 5 years in computer years is just too long to guarantee anything. 3 years ago I got this Dell m1710 with the best graphics card for laptops at the time. Geforce 7900GTX (I just got a 7950 GTX as a warranty replacement). Most games look spiffy still and its only now starting to show its age a little bit. If at the time I'd bought a desktop with an 8800GTX, I could probably squeeze another year out of it until games start to drag. I should say my laptop can play GTAIV at reasonable settings 1280xsomething or other with medium on quite a few things. I play Fallout 3 with high on everything except water at 1900x1220. I always turn bloom and HDR stuff off.
You might say that 8800 GTX would still be good after 5 years if you accept that you might have to run those brand new games at low resolutions/other low settings
The only way you're going to get 5 year longevity out of your machine with no upgrades is to buy absolute top of the line stuff. The top graphics card, the best processor you can find (something quadcore), as much ram as you can jam in it, and the fastest hard drive you can find (I think they got 15,000 RPMs available now for a reasonable price)
But you'd have to accept that approaching the end you're going to be turning stuff down.
If you want to keep playing games with good settings, you might reasonably consider a 3 year cycle of some upgrades.
After 3 years upgrade your graphics card, and maybe your processor
if you get a quad core now, with lots of ram (which is cheap) in 3 years the only thing you may have to upgrade is the video card. With prices dropping on those, we don't have to think about the $800 video card like we did when the 8800 GTX was new, and instead think about new cards being around $400.
So buy the big machine now and in 3 years you can drop $400 more on a video card if you want absolute performance. 3 years after that you can consider replacing the whole thing but maybe now. In 6 years a quadcore and 6 GBs of ram might still be enough. |
They can make use of newer hardware, of course, but if MS had a certification processes where all PC games must work at a certain level of performance on a predecided hardware specifications, this would guarantee people would have at least a good experience. If they have a better hardware, great, they can have a better experience.
Perhaps 5 years was too much, but it should at least guarantee 2-3 years. |
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JackQ
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crossmr
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 08:04 Post subject: |
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| iNatan wrote: |
They can make use of newer hardware, of course, but if MS had a certification processes where all PC games must work at a certain level of performance on a predecided hardware specifications, this would guarantee people would have at least a good experience. If they have a better hardware, great, they can have a better experience.
Perhaps 5 years was too much, but it should at least guarantee 2-3 years. |
Devs already put settings sliders in games. They can't do much more than that to make better use of old hardware. They might put more sliders to control CPU heavy stuff though.
MS doesn't need to certify anything. People just need to stop buying business machines and expect them to run the latest game at the best settings.
This is the real problem. If you really want to see this phenomenon at work go to a Sims forum. I remember around the time TS2 first came out.. a lot of kids parents had these dells with either integrated graphics in them and they expected to be able to play it.
They were the Dimension 2400 I believe. So all these kids had to be talked through buying a Radeon 9200 in PCI format just to get the games started. Most of the complaints about hardware requirements don't come from hardcore gamers. Those people already know how to maintain their boxes and the reality of the life of what they buy.
The only thing we need to do is to get some honest information out there from the retailers about what is a gaming machine and what isn't. What is upgradeable and what isn't.
What is needed is something non-partisan. It can't come from ATI, Nvidia, MS (they have xbox and games for windows, and I'm sure a ton of other interests), intel, amd, etc.
It needs to be a neutral body.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 08:11 Post subject: |
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But that's the point, someone that buys a PC doesn't know if it's a business machine or one that works for games. But if MS were to rate the machine for games (not the silly Vista number rating), then it would help a lot. A lot of people are buying these laptops which have integrated Intel GMA shit and expect to play games on native resolutions. That's plain silly, but they don't know any better. But if they bought a Microsoft certified gaming laptop (and MS certified the games to make sure they would work on such hardware), they'd know they bought a good machine for games.
Also, you say settings sliders, but you'd be surprised how many people just install and play without ever going into the options menu, regardless of their PC hardware. They just want to play.
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Surray
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 10:55 Post subject: |
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Recession? Everyone is losing money right now, so taking current losses as any indication for success is worthless.
And 68% RROD is ridiculous, there's no way it was ever that high.
Microsoft is doing fine. I also sincerely believe that they will release another console.
Everyone knows that console sales themselves aren't what bring the money in.
The real money is with the first party games which have been extremely successful for Microsoft (Halo, Gears of War, etc) as well as the money the third party developers/publishers have to pay to develop and release games for the console.
Likot Mosuskekim, Woodcutter cancels Sleep: Interrupted by Elephant.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 12:59 Post subject: |
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| AKofC wrote: | Console gaming is dying. Only Nintendo will probably push through with a next gen console.
No way Sony is making a PS4 in the next 5 years. Same for Microsoft. lol |
Uhm, lol?
If anything is dying it's PC gaming, tho that won't happen either.
All cross platform releases ship way more on the console. It has a larger target audience (a 300,- console or a 2k,- PC anyone?) and piracy is far less of an issue on consoles.
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Seron
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 13:39 Post subject: |
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Microsoft is not gonna pull out now when rumors are that apples gonna enter. They're gonna work even harder to gain experience/advantage points until then.
From what I've understood they're gonna push xboxnatal as their semi-next-gen console.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 13:48 Post subject: |
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| Belsameth wrote: |
Uhm, lol?
If anything is dying it's PC gaming, tho that won't happen either.
All cross platform releases ship way more on the console. It has a larger target audience (a 300,- console or a 2k,- PC anyone?) and piracy is far less of an issue on consoles. |
BUT consoles are causing losses for the Sony and Microsoft. So I'm pretty sure consoles will be stuck on the same hardware for the next 5 years. Except maybe Nintendo. So yeah, dying.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 18:36 Post subject: |
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| AKofC wrote: | | Belsameth wrote: |
Uhm, lol?
If anything is dying it's PC gaming, tho that won't happen either.
All cross platform releases ship way more on the console. It has a larger target audience (a 300,- console or a 2k,- PC anyone?) and piracy is far less of an issue on consoles. |
BUT consoles are causing losses for the Sony and Microsoft. So I'm pretty sure consoles will be stuck on the same hardware for the next 5 years. Except maybe Nintendo. So yeah, dying. |
This is true, a lot of industry analysts say this. That's why you see silly technologies like Natal take the spotlight, instead of hearing about development of new consoles. |
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nerrd
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 18:45 Post subject: |
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This whole idea of Microsoft not making a new console is more absurd then the whole "PC gaming is dying" debate. MS can loose few buck on each console, but if it was that significant they would never bother with the extended warranties they are giving away for RROD. Also don't forget they make a nice bit of change from all the games, XBL subscription fees, DLC, various advertisements and all the new stuff they have coming out on XBL (netflix, twitter etc.) They are here for the money, and money alone and they are not going anywhere.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 19:06 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 19:16 Post subject: |
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That has to be false. I'm sure they're earning ridiculous amounts of money just from Xbox Live.
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nerrd
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 19:19 Post subject: |
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| iNatan wrote: | | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/03/microsoft-xbox-failure-departure/ |
So what? All that tells me is that they have learned their lesson the hard way, and they'll make sure the next hardware doesn't have major design flaws. Do you really think they will just give up? I highly doubt it.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 19:24 Post subject: |
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When were the last time competition between different brands were bad for - us - the consumers?
I'm a PC gamer by heart and if MS is making another console I think it's great. I do not like consoles however. I think they're simplifying and arcadifying games that could easily have more debth, but that's what the average Joe wants so they build it. Market mechanism 101.
As a platform the PC is as safe as it was in the mid 90's. I've heard about the impending death of the PC as a gaming platform for nearly two decades now. It's not going to happen. Besides the tech rivalry between PC and consoles is benefitting us all. We do not want anyone to have a monopoly on anything. Trust me on this!
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 20:05 Post subject: |
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ps3 also has a failure rate but Sony are masters of press manipulation and you never see it... well only on youtube or on some blogs but never in real press ...M$ on the other hand is to much public with the PC OS stuff in the news so they are a much easier target for FOX News
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 22:01 Post subject: |
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| Surray wrote: | Recession? Everyone is losing money right now, so taking current losses as any indication for success is worthless.
And 68% RROD is ridiculous, there's no way it was ever that high.
Microsoft is doing fine. I also sincerely believe that they will release another console.
Everyone knows that console sales themselves aren't what bring the money in.
The real money is with the first party games which have been extremely successful for Microsoft (Halo, Gears of War, etc) as well as the money the third party developers/publishers have to pay to develop and release games for the console. |
yeah and I'm not on my 3rd 360 in the last three years, I suspect it probably is this high. I read somehere that failure rates for the first gen box was at least 80% with the current gen dropping to around 20% failure, so I reckon that fiqure sounds right to me.
The current consoles provide a base for a good emmersive experience. We would have to see another whole order of graphical fidelity to improve on this generation. Realtime ray trace shadows complex shaders, and super dense 3D real time environments with complex physics effects to make people take notice.
The global recession is effecting cheap technology across the the world. China has lost a third of it's high tec waterfront industries and factories, and technology prices are beginning to rise. Consumers are spending less, because they can't borrow and the banks aint lending
Even the most optimistic financials are suggesting 5 years before things change. It's not just gaming it's technology in general that's being hard hit.
You just can't look at all this from one viewpoint, it's a complex issue and has nothing to do with wether MS and Sony are packing dollars away. If there was real money in this then many others would have stepped forward with competing technology.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 22:20 Post subject: |
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What recession are you guys talking about? Microsoft has been losing money on the Xbox from as early as 2000.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 23:08 Post subject: |
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I may only be .1% of users , being a PS360GIG and a 360 owner. and as of last year , i had to shake off the" plague" of a constant replacement of (3) 360's and bought myself a 60gig 360 and so far things have been good and still have my original PS3 60gig and between the PSN and the 360 forums buy reading the failures , all in all Microsoft has more to worry about failure rates , either redesign or suk up the losses...
ASUS M3A32-MVP Deluxe- AMD 64x2 6000 windsor 125w- 4 gig OCZ gold ddr 800- nvidia MSI 8800gt 512 OC- Audigy 2zs platinum- WD 250g sata 3 16mb -1 liteon dvd r/w non combo- Vista ultimate x64 -Antec 900 gamer -Coolmaster pro 650 psu
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 23:46 Post subject: |
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This is just turning into another "which ones better" thread...
The PS3 is a good games machine with awesome media and music capabilities, the 360 is an awesome games machine with good media and music capability. If you can only afford one and you want games get the 360, if you want it to look cool get the PS3. Or just get both on the never never.
PLEASE MOVE THIS TO CONSOLE TECH AREA..
There will be another gen of both consoles as its a money spinner, xbox has released numerous cost cutting versions of the 360 and so had Sony with the PS3, this will take them into the PS4 and xbox 720 with low cost machines with a profit margin on each one instead of loosing money like they do now.
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 23:49 Post subject: |
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| vinniec7 wrote: | | I may only be .1% of users , being a PS360GIG and a 360 owner. and as of last year , i had to shake off the" plague" of a constant replacement of (3) 360's and bought myself a 60gig 360 and so far things have been good and still have my original PS3 60gig and between the PSN and the 360 forums buy reading the failures , all in all Microsoft has more to worry about failure rates , either redesign or suk up the losses... |
Be warned I thought mine was rock solid, a 60GB UK from launch, no issues ever then one day the BDROM just decides to tick and stop reading disks..
Another MASSIVE plus point for the PS3 is continuous play.
If your PS3 breaks DONT CALL SONY, sign up for continuous play wait a day then call them and tell them your PS3 broke down... ÂŁ5 later and 1 day shipping... A BRAND NEW PS3. Cancel the agreement and repeat on the next failure... NOW THATS SERVICE.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sat, 25th Jul 2009 23:55 Post subject: |
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| crs2009 wrote: | | This is just turning into another "which ones better" thread... |
The shut the fuck up and don't tell how good the PS3 is. No body cares!  Nor is this a thread for discussing which is better or which hardware fails more. That's why I didn't put it in the Console section. |
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| Posted: Sun, 26th Jul 2009 01:16 Post subject: |
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PC can never be pushed as a main gaming platform. accidentally you have to waste a lot money for new parts you have to upgrade to keep up with new games. and its the same very same reason why consoles persist.
and thats the reason why i think pcs are ridiculous. they get antique so quickly.
yes
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Sun, 26th Jul 2009 01:30 Post subject: |
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Well, not if someone was requiring developers to also support older hardware. If MS were to restrict developers to go through certification like they do with the Xbox [360], they could just void the certification if the game would not work on the minimum hardware specifications set by MS.
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| Posted: Sun, 26th Jul 2009 01:41 Post subject: |
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I love gaming on all the gaming platforms that I own (PC and consoles). Neither PC or console gaming deserves to "die".
C2D E6750 @ 3.2Ghz, 4GB 800MHz DDR2 4-4-4-12, GeForce GTX 260 c216 OC 896MB, 3.2TB, Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Xbox 360 Elite, PS2 Slim, Xbox
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. I honestly don´t care if they come up with a hardass protection for pc games, I just want consoles out of the map.
), but no point in exaggerating.
