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 Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 03:51 Post subject: If piracy could end, so would used game sales |
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I had a chat online with a software engineer and game developer over IRC last night. He's employed with one of the largest companies in the world today, and makes games for a very successful game studio. Anyways, he's privy to some of the inner workings of the game industry, and while being reluctant to share any really juicy information he got me to this point at least, regarding software piracy.
He told me that while he personally understood why software piracy is so big, from a pure perspective as a developer he really despised the fact that there are a lot of people out there who have means to purchase games, but still pirate games. His opinion was that if you really have money to spend after you've paid your bills and saved some money for food, that some of the rest should go to purchasing games. Not copying them.
Anyways, our debate went further along and then he told me this (my translation):
"You see, most of the game-companies like ours that are involved with such a big publisher have a pressure on them to be, what they call [i]ethical about the protection of what we produce. We are supposed to agree to have our games protected with complex things that we know will get picked apart by the likes of Razor 1911 and RELOADED but out of simple principle and ethics we should still allow protections like this on our games - now, we as a company have managed to circumvent most of the heavy-duty protection schemes because of how our biggest games are meant to be played online and require valid keys, but we are now forced to be "ethical" by our publishers. We used to be "sceners" ourselves, making demos and being 'liberal' toward the concept of piracy back in the day - but that was when we were kids. When you grow up you start to think a little less about ideals like 'Information wants to be free', and a little more about 'how can I take part in securing my job so that I can provide for my family?'"[/i]
Later on, (in fact early this morning) we came to the subject of what would happen if piracy actually died. And he told me this (again, my translation):
"Well, certainly when we speak to <snip> they tell us that the ideal scenario is that both piracy and used products are eliminated from the consumer market. They do not like the fact that used games are sold, resold and traded. Because it cuts into their sales too. Although nowhere near the same extent as software piracy does, it is still significant enough. [...] How we would do this is by in the future allow for more harsh ways of reinstalling a game. This has already been tried several times, but the consumers aren't accustomed to the concept of having a maximum amount of installs, yet we believe this is something that has to be introduced gradually. We have seen some progress with the PS3 where you now can buy a game, but only install it a certain number of times. This is something you will see more of in the future, and as I understand it (whether I agree with it or not) the same principle will become the norm with the physical copies of software as well."
I'm not involved at all in the gaming industry myself, so to me the concept of controlling the market to this extent is very foreign. But I realize that this mentality among software developers, if it is commonplace will basically mean that, should there ever (unlikely scenario) be no way to do software-piracy, the developers of software would go even further to control and get money from their products in such ways as "maximum number of installs" limited to a certain CD-key for example. This so a purchased game would be practically useless as a resell item. It is a pretty dire future for the consumer if this would actually happen.
I used to talk a bit to this guy back in the early/mid nineties when visiting big hacking parties when he was active as a demo maker, we also frequented the same BBS's - so this is why I've been able to maybe get a bit deeper under the surface. I asked him if it was OK if I spoke about this on forums, and he was OK with it. He doesn't have anything against that people have an ability to express their opinions about things like this subject.
As I understand it, and apparently a big condition in the gaming industry these days is the actuality of sales is what is driving toward the consoles. I never felt that the PC would ever leave a position of dominance, but this is where the gaming industry is headed according to my friend. He says (my translation) 'You simply cannot ignore the fact that sales, comparatively between the platforms give you a strong indicator which of the platforms now is dominant - and will continue to dominate' - 'I believe that those in control of said platform have nothing against the fact that their main software platform for all non-gaming activities would be the PC, while all games would be released for the XBOX360.'
But personally I don't think this will happen. If the XBOX360 would become (or if it already has become) the dominant gaming platform. Then just as well will the pirates follow along it and releases for those will be as commonplace as they have been on the PC. While in theory the future may look dire, I strongly believe that the quest for "freedom" (if you will) for the bits will be the constant. Because this isn't just about the puerile ramblings of sixteen year-olds. It is about the actual control over what is and isn't allowed in terms of Copyright. And, as one of the better voices on this subject has said before me (que Lawrence Lessig, paraphrasing): Our world has become a less, and less free one.
I honestly believe that as long as the software industry keeps trying to exert an iron clad control over how digital rights management is used, there will be an equal and opposite counter-reaction from those who do not tolerate the same. And the only way to make said counter-reaction smaller, is to exert less control. The more the software-developers twist and turn to be able to say what is right and what is wrong, the more the snare of the pirates grip around their throats.
And I believe this is as should be.
My "buddy" disagrees with me. But so be it.
Hopefully in the future I will still be able to disagree with him - because if the masses become brainwashed to think that paying time and time over after for the same product is a good, normal thing. That really is Dystopia to me.
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lhzr
Posts: 3902
Location: RO
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 04:05 Post subject: Re: If piracy could end, so would used game sales |
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| dominae wrote: | | if the masses become brainwashed to think that paying time and time over after for the same product is a good, normal thing. That really is Dystopia to me. |
that dystopia that you're talking about is pretty much here. the masses consider normal what the tv tells them it's normal. the tv doesn't say that stealing is ok, so when they'll have to pay over and over for everything, they'll do it. or they won't do it, but they won't steal anything either, because that would be wrong.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 04:33 Post subject: |
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They have to gradually introduce install limits? Ya right. He's a pompous ass. Doing such will do nothing more than push people to consoles where you can play a game all you want. I still hook up my N64 and play older games. Why should games no days be different to where I can only enjoy them twice and have to buy an other copy?
From his responses it sounds like he's either from EA or Ubisoft where they can't develop worth a shit and needs a scapegoat for their inabilities.
They can go ahead and try putting 2 install limits all they want. The more they push that shit, the more people will boycott. Look at EA and spore. They got a lawsuit for the shit.
They try that shit on consoles, people won't buy the console /or the games.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 05:12 Post subject: |
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In order to pirate games on consoles, you have open the console, void the warranty, sometimes solder. To pirate for PC, you download and wait for the crack.
But the future is in digital distribution. Platforms like Steam will continue to evolve and make piracy and used games a non-issue in the future....well, that's the best outlook for developers/publishers anyway.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 05:30 Post subject: |
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| SpykeZ wrote: | They have to gradually introduce install limits? Ya right. He's a pompous ass. Doing such will do nothing more than push people to consoles where you can play a game all you want. I still hook up my N64 and play older games. Why should games no days be different to where I can only enjoy them twice and have to buy an other copy?
From his responses it sounds like he's either from EA or Ubisoft where they can't develop worth a shit and needs a scapegoat for their inabilities.
They can go ahead and try putting 2 install limits all they want. The more they push that shit, the more people will boycott. Look at EA and spore. They got a lawsuit for the shit.
They try that shit on consoles, people won't buy the console /or the games. |
Yeah. I don't really like the vibes I'm getting, but it seems like a lot of people go corrupt as soon as they get involved with the industry. It's capitalism at it's finest. Like, speaking about piracy back in the old days was like "fuck, who cares" with him. And now he's more like "Well, you have to buy games". :/
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 05:33 Post subject: |
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| tedrotheredro wrote: | In order to pirate games on consoles, you have open the console, void the warranty, sometimes solder. To pirate for PC, you download and wait for the crack.
But the future is in digital distribution. Platforms like Steam will continue to evolve and make piracy and used games a non-issue in the future....well, that's the best outlook for developers/publishers anyway. |
Well, the thing about Steam is that your ownership is controlled through the Valve EULA, which they can change whenever they want to. So it wouldn't surprise me if in some part of our not too distant future decided to say "Well, you own the game - but you have to pay a fee if you want to install it a sixth time". And then warrant that cost by saying (this is just an example): "Well, it costs us the bandwidth to ship the game to you. So you have to pay".
If that sort of deal becomes the norm, like it's becoming with f.ex. PS3 Store (if you buy a game on the Ps3-store you can install it 5 times, and then you have to pay for it again).
=/
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 06:28 Post subject: |
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If they become more invasive and abusive, all they are doing is inviting more hackers in to tear their protection apart, even white hats.
Install limits are foolishness. The future really lies in a Steam sort of DRM model.
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 07:00 Post subject: |
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Thanks so much for this post dom, i love these kind of posts.
Tainted's right, steam is the way to go really, mostly because it ADDS value rather than taking it away. Piling on steam gives Valve a lot of power, but they seem the most reasonable when it comes to business.
I think there's an underlying law/truth/emotion that copying shit on your pc is what comes naturally and if you try to stop that you'll get cut down because people believe it to be right. So you gotta make it worth it for your customers to pay for your product, copying aside.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 07:36 Post subject: |
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The cool thing with steam is they even allow you to backup your own games. Just choose the option and off to a dvd it goes.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 12:31 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 13:35 Post subject: |
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I guess they are going to lower the prices to? Paying the same for less really is screwing people in the ass.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 17:37 Post subject: |
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| Atropa wrote: | | I guess they are going to lower the prices to? Paying the same for less really is screwing people in the ass. |
did they lower the prices of bioshock, spore and all the other "limited installs" games? nope, and that's the ridiculous part.
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24636
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 17:54 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | EA Store Sells The Option To Redownload Your Games
When you buy a downloadable game, you take the ability to redownload it for granted; sadly enough, this is not the case when purchasing from EA Store.
After adding a game to your EA Store cart, you'll be presented with an option to buy "Extended Download Service" for an addition $6.99. EA explains the extended download service, saying that it "means that with the purchase of your digital product, we'll keep a copy of your file for two full years, so you don't have to. You'll gain peace of mind knowing that we have your program stored and ready for you to download again at your convenience."
Needless to say, EDS costs EA exactly nothing as they already have to store all transactions in their financial records. The real question is, why would anybody buy EA games from EA Store, given that they are already available on Steam without extra the fees and limitations. |
Source: http://www.megagames.com/news/html/console/eastoresellstheoptiontoredownloadyourgames.shtml
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 21:33 Post subject: |
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ROFLMAO oh now THAT is fucking retarded. It's bad enough EA has earned the laughing stock of the video game industry award now they are pulling this shit?
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 22:16 Post subject: |
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With the actions of companies like EA they are simply going to aid piracy.
Also I always found that copy protection itself to be a bit shady. Don't we already have the legal rights to create backups of the things we already legally purchased? At least here in America I believe that's the case. However with copy protections this also stops people from legally making copies for themselves only. Is it even legal to stop someone from doing this?
Now this install/download limit is just even more insane. If you buy something you should have the right to use it all you want. Software isn't special and shouldn't be treated as such. Could you imagine if we applied this to other things we use? One day you get ready for work and go out to your car only for it to tell you that your start up limit as run up and that you need to purchase more. So then you have to use your little OnStar type deal to buy more uses which of course won't be cheap. This way the car companies can continue to profit off you even after you purchased the car. This is exactly what software in turning into right now and its unacceptable.
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| Posted: Sat, 3rd Jan 2009 23:53 Post subject: |
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EA has earned the title of the dark evil empire for quite a while now and they're only making the consumer hate them more with their over priced products , intrusive DRM and maltreatment of the consumer, they can suck my cock for all I care , I'm never buying anything from them anytime soon
pffft easy as that , long live piracy
piracy is there to even things , nothing more nothing less , it puts limits to their limitless greed
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Jan 2009 05:20 Post subject: |
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| NuclearShadow wrote: | | Don't we already have the legal rights to create backups of the things we already legally purchased? At least here in America I believe that's the case. |
I'm not sure, but I think they use separate EULA's to tiptoe around this, I am sure that big companies like EA have legal departments that actively try to find loopholes to abuse.
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Jan 2009 06:06 Post subject: |
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| NuclearShadow wrote: | Don't we already have the legal rights to create backups of the things we already legally purchased? At least here in America I believe that's the case. However with copy protections this also stops people from legally making copies for themselves only. Is it even legal to stop someone from doing this?
Software isn't special and shouldn't be treated as such. Could you imagine if we applied this to other things we use? One day you get ready for work and go out to your car only for it to tell you that your start up limit as run up and that you need to purchase more. |
Software IS special according to the laws surrounding its 'sale' because you don't buy the software itself as I am sure you already know. You buy a licence to use the software and that usage can be subject to any number of restrictions regarding number of computers it can be installed on, times it can be activated, copying, modifying, etc. And we're not even talking about source code here.
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nouseforaname
Über-VIP Member
Posts: 21306
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Jan 2009 08:28 Post subject: |
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I haven't bought a game in years, don't plan on buying another one.
piracy = ftw.
asus z170-A || core i5-6600K || geforce gtx 970 4gb || 16gb ddr4 ram || win10 || 1080p led samsung 27"
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
Location: White Shaft
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Jan 2009 09:42 Post subject: |
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I still buy games that I play A LOT because I feel they deserve it plus it's nice to have around.
That being said the day it becomes the norm for me to buy a limited license instead of the full game is the day I stop purchasing any kind of software what so ever.
8 out of 10 dentists prefer zipfero to competing brands(fraich3 and Mutantius)!
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
Location: White Shaft
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Jan 2009 09:43 Post subject: |
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| dominae wrote: | | NuclearShadow wrote: | | Don't we already have the legal rights to create backups of the things we already legally purchased? At least here in America I believe that's the case. |
I'm not sure, but I think they use separate EULA's to tiptoe around this, I am sure that big companies like EA have legal departments that actively try to find loopholes to abuse. |
They can write what they want in the EULA's there is still certain basic ownership rights when you acquire a product, that they can't get around.
8 out of 10 dentists prefer zipfero to competing brands(fraich3 and Mutantius)!
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Jan 2009 09:51 Post subject: |
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| zipfero wrote: | | They can write what they want in the EULA's there is still certain basic ownership rights when you acquire a product, that they can't get around. |
That certainly is true for physical things, but not so much for software.
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Jan 2009 10:04 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Jan 2009 10:21 Post subject: |
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| nouseforaname wrote: | I haven't bought a game in years, don't plan on buying another one.
piracy = ftw. |
same here lol
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Jan 2009 15:10 Post subject: |
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i used to buy games, now i play every 6 months or so and download it = no big harm
intellectual property is a thing ppl should respect in some way
yes
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| Posted: Sun, 4th Jan 2009 16:48 Post subject: |
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| nouseforaname wrote: | I haven't bought a game in years, don't plan on buying another one.
piracy = ftw. |
Online games are hard to get around. Sure you can play on cracked servers, but it's not the same, and usually they're glitchy and/or aren't updated. I've bought TF2, L4D, and WoW in the past few years, but nothing else.
Subscription-based services like WoW are more likely to get my money because Bliizz adds more value than your average game, where your avg game takes your $50-60 and runs away. Steam also adds value b/c you can download your game on any PC at any time. Additionally, Valve updates their games on a massive scale and consistently compared to other games that only fix glitches once in a blue moon.
If software companies weren't so greedy, forcing install limits and adding very little value to their product, I would be more willing to fling money around.
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