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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14327
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 Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 14:38 Post subject: Political discussions and debate online |
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Ask yourself the following question: When did the political discussions become so poisoned with hyperbole and hysterisation and the complete ineptitude of some people to question their own beliefs and ideals.
I mean yes, it has always been the case in some way, that we all have our own ideals that we want to share and debate. And that we’re going to several lenghts to prove our points. We’ve always had heated debates. Obviously your political stance defines your perception of yourself and as such isn't easy to change. I have become more moderate in my time I suppose due to becoming more involved in real life as opposed to being a student.
But I feel that nowadays simple discussions can lead to impasses so fast because you have now the possibility to simply engulf yourself in your online bubble/community/echo chamber that you don’t need to talk with opposing ideas anymore. It effectively leads to people stopping to communicate about political issues completely. You don’t hear the argument anymore, instead you immediately identify the enemy. And this comes from both extremes of the spectrum (neither sees themself as the extreme of course).
I don't know exactly when it started to become so bad. But based on my subjective feeling (being here in Europe, the american phenomena come a bit late), I‘d guess around 2014. The year of gamergate, where the sjw, snowflake, nu-feminism culture started to openly involve itself in our gaming hobby. This was an american phenomenon to me but gradually started to creep into other media. But also the year of more open alt-right trolling and Pegida in Germany. Interestingly both „communities“ (snowflakes and alt-right) started creating their own bubbles. Youtube channels and other media formerly about technical stuff or gaming became political and grabbed subscribers with them. And it becomes worse by the day. And Trump, on top of this, is just the culmination and manages to bring out the worst of both discourses.
To me this false dualism of political discourse is actually the worst that can happen to a society. The hyperbole, the demonization of the other opinion and the unwillingness to even read the opposing opinion destroys the so important political discussions necessary for the well functioning of society.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 14:56 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 23:19; edited 2 times in total
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13515
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 15:26 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 05:49; edited 3 times in total
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13515
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 15:27 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 05:49; edited 3 times in total
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 15:30 Post subject: |
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tonizito
VIP Member
Posts: 51396
Location: Portugal, the shithole of Europe.
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 15:37 Post subject: |
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| Nalo wrote: | | I was gonna say more but I have to take my cat to the vet now. As she injured her paw. |
Left SJW paw or right Nazi paw?  Since you mention none I assume you're just a silly centrist! 
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13515
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 15:42 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 05:49; edited 3 times in total
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 15:43 Post subject: |
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Political discussions on this forum are impossible IMO since we all are brilliant and correct all the time.
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 15:51 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 23:19; edited 2 times in total
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 16:19 Post subject: |
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| Nalo wrote: | | paxsali wrote: | | Nalo wrote: | | I was gonna say more but I have to take my cat to the vet now. As she injured her paw. |
Did you ask your wife for permission to leave the house? |
No I haven't seen your mum today |
You see how quickly a discussion escalates to shit  |
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24636
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 16:26 Post subject: |
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For me it was when social "media" really took off around ~2013/2014. Since then it's been safer to kick an underground bloodsucker from Stalker.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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DXWarlock
VIP Member
Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 16:30 Post subject: |
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| paxsali wrote: |
This is obviously a joke, since it's a well known fact that only I am brilliant and correct all the time... |
Well once I thought I was wrong, but sadly I was mistaken in that fact. 
--
I get you wont change anyone's mind, I do. No one has ever changed their religion, political views, or personal convictions by any appreciable amount by idly typing messages with strangers.
But I feel debate is important: You never learn anything new by agreeing with someone and moving on.
That might be a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the intent of the saying.
It's hard to see someones viewpoint that seems alien to you, unless you both openly discuss and explain why you have that viewpoint. You may not ever agree, but at least you understand why and how they came to that conclusion. You may even still argue/debate after finding out, but at least you both know WHAT you are debating over. You may disagree with ever fiber of your being, but at least there is some mutual respect now between you of understanding the reason for the passionate stances.
But some people, speaking in general overall not just here, make it a hair pulling experience trying to understand how they got where they are, and where their starting point was to grasp their position. It's like trying to grab a greased up pig. It just squeals wiggles and runs away leaving you to fall in the mud.
I agree I myself could probably handle it better..but after the 12th time face planting in the mud, you do want to just stand up and go "GODDAMMIT! Hold still!"
It's a bit like trying to talk to a deeply religious person about God to try to get that conversation going.
They have no real reasoning they can explain other than deeply ingrained emotional reactions, loyalty to a whole cause by agreeing with/the appeal of one point of that cause, and a bit of sunken cost fallacy for reasons to defend where they are.
I think some of it stems from the idea that its not like it up to be.
That "general populace" was an overall neutral space. The only place you got echo chamber reinforcement was in inner circles. News at one time was (mostly) balanced and impartial. Speaking at any 'public' setting got a gambit of viewpoints tossed around, and reinforced the idea that you are one of many many differing stances and opinions.
But now its as easy as opening a browser to fine tune and selectively find 1000's upon 1000's that will prop up you and cheer "preach it!" to whatever your particular flavor of opinion is.
No longer does it feel like people say "In my opinion" its now "This is OUR view" speaking boldly as self appointed 'best in class' of the masses you found that clap or jeer alongside you.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
Last edited by DXWarlock on Mon, 26th Aug 2019 16:44; edited 1 time in total
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Nalo
nothing
Posts: 13515
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 16:43 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Nalo on Wed, 3rd Jul 2024 05:49; edited 3 times in total
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14327
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 18:22 Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the input guys.
| Mister_s wrote: | | Political discussions on this forum are impossible IMO since we all are brilliant and correct all the time. |
Thats not too much of an issue to me. I suppose everyone who writes is, at the time of his writing, more or less certain that what he says is right. The second thing, is accepting another opinion, which is normally the issue but usually this leads to further discussion. Often heated. The core of political debates is everyone thinking they are right. There is nothing wrong with that.
But social media, imo, has added another quality. Not only do people not want to agree with the other opinion (and therefor seek better arguments), but they don’t need to acknowledge it anymore. They simply believe the other person is wrong because they don’t judge the argument but the supposed „agenda“. It then becomes the exact opposite of a debate. It becomes dogmatic. Even people without own arguments can adhere to a cause.
And what fuels this dogmatism is a specific language that gets used and people who feed a specific narrative without caring whether they are right or wrong, simply to belong to a certain group/make money/fear etc. Social media partisanship.
To me, that is a rather new development.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 18:33 Post subject: |
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i think reddit also is a huge influencer with their karma and score shit, if u notice ur posts are getting downvoted, u delete or never argue there again.
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 18:35 Post subject: |
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And to that I say
no u
I win.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14327
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 18:36 Post subject: |
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| The_Zeel wrote: | And to that I say
no u
I win. |
Congratz!
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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Il_Padrino
Posts: 7544
Location: Greece by the North Sea
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 19:07 Post subject: |
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I think it's always been like that, but with the Internet people suddenly had the option to publicize any opinion on a global scale. And there's always someone somewhere that shares the opinion, or gets offended by it.
But I agree that with Facebook, and especially Twitter, I feel (because of the limited space), it has snowballed into where we currently are. It's become... too easy/convenient? for people to use, perhaps?
Everyone has a smartphone as well.
But I also think it's going to fade a bit back, after a while. I consider it a bit the result of new and still largely (I mean by most people) unknown technologies that people have to learn to use and, especially, learn its consequences.
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 19:11 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | Thanks for all the input guys.
| Mister_s wrote: | | Political discussions on this forum are impossible IMO since we all are brilliant and correct all the time. |
Thats not too much of an issue to me. I suppose everyone who writes is, at the time of his writing, more or less certain that what he says is right. The second thing, is accepting another opinion, which is normally the issue but usually this leads to further discussion. Often heated. The core of political debates is everyone thinking they are right. There is nothing wrong with that.
But social media, imo, has added another quality. Not only do people not want to agree with the other opinion (and therefor seek better arguments), but they don’t need to acknowledge it anymore. They simply believe the other person is wrong because they don’t judge the argument but the supposed „agenda“. It then becomes the exact opposite of a debate. It becomes dogmatic. Even people without own arguments can adhere to a cause.
And what fuels this dogmatism is a specific language that gets used and people who feed a specific narrative without caring whether they are right or wrong, simply to belong to a certain group/make money/fear etc. Social media partisanship.
To me, that is a rather new development. |
New development indeed, but very ancient underlying causes. Social media allows everyone's opinions to be broadcast to everyone, which wasn't the case before, it just wasn't possible - save if you were some kind of public figure, you'd often keep it to your inner circle as an individual, people you could communicate with by the very limited means of the time. Sure, there were newspapers or books recently, the forum in Antiquity, darker times at which new ideas would be crushed from the get-go.. but there's nothing quite close to the unique possibilities the Internet offers - again, to everyone who can afford it to some extent, which is pretty much the entire Earth at this point.
Was probably more adequate to a vast majority's of humans in terms of what one can handle in terms of contradiction and abnormality - ideally, the more opinions/views/facts presented, the more you'd learn, but curiosity and honesty towards oneself are absolute requisites.
I'm pretty pessimistic about all of this, I have a hard time thinking that humanity at large can handle such an absolute capacity to communicate - it's mitigated at the moment by the older generations, but when you see how dependent the younger generations are to social media, I just don't know how this will evolve. The dogmatization you wrote about and which anyone can perceive is an expected result, but will it have lasting effects on our societies, leading to further dogmatization ? Will other natural societal forces counter balance it as such has been the case before ? We live in cycles, and this is only the beginning of a big one.
I do hope that it won't generate more polarized discourse and be overall nefarious to the quality of our political, sociological, historical (anything really) debate. I do hope that our institutions are solid enough for that not to happen. Perhaps some form of fundamental change in them needs to be brought in order to face these new challenges.. or does it ?
But I'm really not sure about this all, pretty obvious from all my questions. Might be an effect of actually living through it ! 
| Il_Padrino wrote: | I think it's always been like that, but with the Internet people suddenly had the option to publicize any opinion on a global scale. And there's always someone somewhere that shares the opinion, or gets offended by it.
But I agree that with Facebook, and especially Twitter, I feel (because of the limited space), it has snowballed into where we currently are. It's become... too easy/convenient? for people to use, perhaps?
Everyone has a smartphone as well.
But I also think it's going to fade a bit back, after a while. I consider it a bit the result of new and still largely (I mean by most people) unknown technologies that people have to learn to use and, especially, learn its consequences. |
What this guy said ! With a lot less useless words than me
| Nalo wrote: | | It is rare to see someone cede a point openly and honestly. Rarer still, to see someone alter their opinions/beliefs. I would say that it has something to do with psychology and the way in which these beliefs are formed. We have an emotional investment and attachment because as you say couleur, our political views are an extension of our most intimate selves. In this way people tend to feel personally attacked when their views are critisized. Defense mechanisms are activated and what results is a closed system, whereby neither side can communicate effectively. Actually most people don't really want dialogue at all. They want something to attack so that their own beliefs become more legitimised, entrenched and solidified. |
I hope that I am able to concede points and make a number of my views evolve through time, ignoring those basic defence mechanisms (if I can be conscious of them, that is) which overall make your mind poorer - questioning a good number of these views all the time, a few of them from time to time. It's the healthiest of habits to me.
I can be pretty stubborn though, and quite vain at times. Work in progress !
Last edited by TheZor on Mon, 26th Aug 2019 21:39; edited 1 time in total
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
Posts: 65076
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Mon, 26th Aug 2019 20:55 Post subject: |
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I don't know how things have specifically (d)evolved in other online places that are not the Hump (I'm not active on social media/reddit/anywhere, nor do I care), but there's a 97.85% chance that those who are directly touched by this discussion and represent the cause of disruptive dialogue will keep ignoring any constructive criticism/suggestion. Simply because there is no issue in the first place for them, which makes the entire scenario rather tragicomic
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Aug 2019 01:31 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Interinactive on Mon, 4th Oct 2021 09:08; edited 3 times in total
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DXWarlock
VIP Member
Posts: 11422
Location: Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Aug 2019 06:11 Post subject: |
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| Interinactive wrote: | | I didn't understand it so I asked one woman who was in the group and she basically said that Americans were just like that. Good enough for me! |
Yea some Americans are. And I might seem like that type as much as I talk about it..but unless its already came up, I don't talk about politics much in general public. (I hate being the one just tossing it out there as a topic. Sort of like I wont bring up religion in person no matter what your belief is, unless you start it.).
And I might be over relating things that are not. But to me it goes hand in hand with the same reason Americans are known to be overly religious to a level of aggressiveness. It seems too common to be a coincidence that the most religious here are also the most aggressive in defending non-nonsensical, unwavering, immutable political opinions that only change when the herd mentality of it changes.
Using the same thinking process for politics: It's no longer opinions, or conclusions; its convictions. And to hear counter to your convictions is seen as an attack not only on you but the very foundation of what you hold true.
-We don't control what happens to us in life, but we control how we respond to what happens in life.
-Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times. -G. Michael Hopf
Disclaimer: Post made by me are of my own creation. A delusional mind relayed in text form.
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| Posted: Tue, 27th Aug 2019 09:52 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Ask yourself the following question: When did the political discussions become so poisoned with hyperbole and hysterisation and the complete ineptitude of some people to question their own beliefs and ideals.
I mean yes, it has always been the case in some way, that we all have our own ideals that we want to share and debate. And that we’re going to several lenghts to prove our points. We’ve always had heated debates. Obviously your political stance defines your perception of yourself and as such isn't easy to change. I have become more moderate in my time I suppose due to becoming more involved in real life as opposed to being a student.
But I feel that nowadays simple discussions can lead to impasses so fast because you have now the possibility to simply engulf yourself in your online bubble/community/echo chamber that you don’t need to talk with opposing ideas anymore. It effectively leads to people stopping to communicate about political issues completely. You don’t hear the argument anymore, instead you immediately identify the enemy. And this comes from both extremes of the spectrum (neither sees themself as the extreme of course).
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since internet became mainstream / social media.
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nouseforaname
Über-VIP Member
Posts: 21306
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu, 29th Aug 2019 03:07 Post subject: |
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VGAdeadcafe is conspicuously absent from this thread lol
asus z170-A || core i5-6600K || geforce gtx 970 4gb || 16gb ddr4 ram || win10 || 1080p led samsung 27"
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Morphineus
VIP Member
Posts: 24883
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu, 29th Aug 2019 03:23 Post subject: |
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| nouseforaname wrote: | | VGAdeadcafe is conspicuously absent from this thread lol |
Probably too busy back-pedalling in the WN section. Aka the usual. |
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this discourse at 3:16 suprized me
