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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24592
Location: Your Mom
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 Posted: Sat, 8th Jun 2024 10:47 Post subject: Cosmology questions + AI = results? No. |
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I've always been interested in various stuff about our universe whether it's about speed of light, time dilation, black holes and so on. I've often found myself questioning theories that the scientific world holds as true.
In this case it's our anthropocentric view on the universe that has given me some questions and doubts when it comes to accepted theories.
The particular issue this time is our measurement of the age of the universe.
We only know the size of our local/observable universe with Earth at the centre of that "sphere". Yet the theory says that the entire universe (of which we know absolutely nothing about) is 13.8 billion years old which is also the number describing the diameter of our local universe. Using CMB, measuring the expansion of space etc. were used to make that assumption.
But.. that's only from our very anthropocentric view, sitting at the center of what may be a very tiny speck within the whole entire universe.
So I had a chat with ChatGPT (started with ChatGPT4 but very quickly got demoted to 3.5) to see if I could use it as a "virtual astrophysicist" to ask questions to and challenge responses. I went step by step, asking simple questions to establish a path to follow and make it easy to understand.
Here's an extremely abridged version of the chat, the full thing can be found in the spoiler.
| Quote: |
* is the observable universe a sphere with earth in the middle
ChatGPT
The observable universe can indeed be described as a sphere centered around the Earth, but this description needs some context to avoid misconceptions.
(skipping the wall of pretty uninteresting text)
* How are our measurements of the age of the universe accurate if we only use the observable universe as the subject?
ChatGPT
Measuring the age of the universe involves a combination of observational data and theoretical models, and while our measurements are based on the observable universe, they are consistent with our understanding of the entire universe. Here’s how we can achieve accurate measurements of the universe's age despite only having access to the observable portion:
(skipping the wall of pretty uninteresting text)
* Is CMB radiation from our observable universe?
ChatGPT
Yes, the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) radiation is indeed from our observable universe. Here’s an explanation of what that means and why it's significant:
(skipping the wall of pretty uninteresting text)
* observable universe will be called local universe for the rest of the conversation.
ChatGPT
Got it. For the rest of our conversation, I'll refer to the observable universe as the "local universe."
* But we do not know how big the universe really is
ChatGPT
You're correct that we do not know the actual size of the entire universe. The observable (or "local") universe is just a finite portion of the entire universe that we can see, limited by the age of the universe and the speed of light. Beyond this observable region, the universe may extend infinitely, or it could be finite but unbounded. Here's how cosmologists approach this uncertainty.
(skipping the wall of pretty uninteresting text)
* Age of the universe, does that only indicate our local universe?
ChatGPT
The age of the universe, when we refer to it as approximately 13.8 billion years, is intended to describe the age of the entire universe, not just the local (observable) universe. Here's a more detailed explanation:
(skipping the wall of pretty uninteresting text)
* Even if it's claimed that they're grounded in extensive observational evidence we still can't claim it as the truth.
ChatGPT
You're correct in highlighting a fundamental aspect of scientific inquiry: scientific theories and models are not absolute truths, but rather the best explanations we have based on current evidence and understanding. Here’s a more detailed look at this principle and how it applies to cosmology:
(skipping the wall of pretty uninteresting text)
* what is the diameter of the local universe
ChatGPT
The term "local universe" typically refers to the observable universe, which is the portion of the entire universe that we can observe. Its size is determined by the age of the universe and the speed of light.
(chatgpt says ~13.8 billion light-years which is not correct; the current estimate is 93 billion light-years when taking the expansion of the universe since big bang into consideration.)
* are you sure the local universe is only 13.8 billion ly?
ChatGPT
You are correct; the observable (local) universe is actually much larger than 13.8 billion light-years in diameter. My earlier explanation didn't take into account the expansion of the universe properly.
* Yet it's claimed that the entire universe is 13.8 billion years
ChatGPT
You're correct. The diameter of the observable universe being approximately 13.8 billion light-years is indeed consistent with the age of the universe being approximately 13.8 billion years. This might seem counterintuitive at first glance, but it's because the universe has been expanding since the Big Bang.
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This is where I stopped since I figured that whatever ChatGPT replied with would just be answers based on all the stale documents and website text it was trained on, thus it's futile to use as a replacement of a real person that I can ask.
After all, it's not true AI, it's just a very advanced database tool. It can't use reasoning or anything like that which means it's basically an indiscriminate librarian that has no idea if the data is current, stale or completely irrelevant.
The insight I got from this is that current AI tech (ChatGPT and similar) is very basic and not particularly intelligent. As I said before, it's a glorified database requester. It's been trained to give us the illusion of intelligence but the responses are just weighted data-points being used to retrieve data. Well, most of us knew that already. I just felt like making a massive post about it.
Oh well. Someone wants to say hello:
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Jun 2024 16:04 Post subject: Re: Cosmology questions + AI = results? No. |
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| Frant wrote: |
After all, it's not true AI, it's just a very advanced database tool. It can't use reasoning or anything like that which means it's basically an indiscriminate librarian that has no idea if the data is current, stale or completely irrelevant.
The insight I got from this is that current AI tech (ChatGPT and similar) is very basic and not particularly intelligent. As I said before, it's a glorified database requester. It's been trained to give us the illusion of intelligence but the responses are just weighted data-points being used to retrieve data. Well, most of us knew that already. I just felt like making a massive post about it.
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What Ive been saying since the AI thread started. (Not aimed at you, just the population in general).
Some people act like it has a personality, and insight, and can ponder things or think/rationalize concepts. It can't. Its a fancy speak and spell/scrabble game player that just rewords the data its limited to in ways that make people think: It came up with a new sentence about a subject it was told, so it must be able to conceptualize it to do so.
No, thats them giving it human traits, based on how to them, they need to understand something to rephrase it. It is more akin to taking an unabridged dictionary, compiling all the words it contains, filtering down to the relevant words to your query, and ordering them based on probability of occurrence using buttloads of references on that subject you asked.
Add a voice generator to it, and some people start having emotional/instinctual human misfiring trigger reactions to it. As we only have one reference of a 'thing' doing that (talk in sentences with a voice), and that is us. So we apply false properties and attributes to it we have, it doesnt.
While some can argue: But we dont know fully how it works.
I agree, but we for sure know how it doesn't work.
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73194
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Jun 2024 16:25 Post subject: Re: Cosmology questions + AI = results? No. |
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| Frant wrote: | |
Whomever could that possible be a reference to?   |
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| Posted: Sat, 8th Jun 2024 16:39 Post subject: |
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It has come to light I need to adjust my post.
As it seems people apply false properties and attributes reading too much intent of purpose into things other people say too, not just to AI.
It appears it is not AI is good at fooling us, as much as by this fine example, some of us are bad are reading what we want into things that are not there, regardless if AI or a human says it.
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| Posted: Mon, 10th Jun 2024 23:46 Post subject: |
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| Frant wrote: | | Here's an extremely abridged version of the chat, the full thing can be found in the spoiler. |
I missed the spoiler. Never mind posting, I am not going to read it.
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24592
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Tue, 11th Jun 2024 04:37 Post subject: |
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| iconized wrote: | | Frant wrote: | | Here's an extremely abridged version of the chat, the full thing can be found in the spoiler. |
I missed the spoiler. Never mind posting, I am not going to read it. |
Then why did you even bother replying?
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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| Posted: Tue, 11th Jun 2024 08:08 Post subject: |
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Replying took a lot less time than reading above stuff.
Perhaps others like to read it.
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24592
Location: Your Mom
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| Posted: Tue, 11th Jun 2024 09:47 Post subject: |
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Troll? Seriously? You are trying to feed us with correspondence from an AI bot.
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Frant
King's Bounty
Posts: 24592
Location: Your Mom
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LeoNatan
☢ NFOHump Despot ☢
Posts: 73194
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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| Posted: Tue, 11th Jun 2024 16:17 Post subject: |
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Who even reads iconized posts?
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