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 Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 16:22 Post subject: Nationalism sucks |
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You think otherwise? Please do tell.
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 16:24 Post subject: Re: Nationalism sucks |
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| PumpAction wrote: | | You think otherwise? Please do tell. |
Nope, looks fine to me.  |
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14341
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 16:27 Post subject: |
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| couleur wrote: | What is a nation then really?
You might say, that tree over there exists or even that flag, but what is a nation really? Can you touch it? Can you smell it or see it?
The concept of nation and furthermore national identiy serves a very similar purpose than that of religion. Namely to have a sense of common values, community (or reason to stick together etc.) And as such it has and still mostly serves as an instrument of power. It has a mythology, alot of invented symbols and uses diverese methods of indoctrination to make people believe in it. Mostly through language and school. How can you get people to fight and die for your kingdom? Make them believe in them belonging to your nation.
Just look at the french (as an example I actually know better). The country is so diverse, so many different cultural aspects from north to south, from east to west. Even the languages are different in some places. But they managed to create such a strong mythology concerning the french nation that people actually believe in it.
For most of them, it seems this nation has always been there but it hasnt. Nations are quite recent inventions. They are articficial superpositions over ethnic and cultural traditions, languages etc.
The artificiality of nations shows best in its reductionist nature. The imposition of a national language removes and fights local tongues. The national symbols replace the more local symbols and, most of the time, reuses them in its own fashion. And it lives in constant fear of differentiation. Any part that would wish to become independent is harshly fought. It is narcissistic just like religions. And people constantly fight over the right to define what their nation REALLY represents. Of course, because it is an impossible task.
I can accept people believing in their nation just like people believing in their religions, some people need it to have a sense of who they are, but once they start fighting over them, it becomes annoying and idiotic.
Chauvinistic nationalists are just as bad as the bearded idiots in the middle east. They think their penis is so much more beautiful and they have the historical right to some piece of earth over someone else, because of some random length of time someone has lived there. OR they think they need to convert other nations to their national religions.
In the end, its all for economic reasons and power play.
Instead of seeing what makes us all the same, religious fanatics and nationalistic chauvinists need to differentiate themselves from others for some reason. Probably because they didnt get enough motherly love.
AT LEAST if people came to realize the non-essential nature of nationality and see that is object to change in time just like culture and traditions, that would be enough. |
| couleur wrote: | | M4trix wrote: | Let's put it very simple. Do you love your country, Sweden ? If you do then why would I have to be angry if you say Sweden is the best country or nation in the world ? Why would you be a nationalist or something bad ? Unfortunately, most European countries are in self destruct mode and a perfect example is Sweden and Germany. That's why most of the EU cucks hate Hungary because they don't obey the globalist rules and aren't in self destruct mode. Now call me a nationalist cuz I think Croats are the best despite the corrupt politicians and other scum .  
I will quote Napoleon Bonaparte : Give me 100 000 croatian soldiers and I will conquer the world ! |
My critique of the concept of nation as an idealized, artificial and reductuve idea of a multitude of very a diverse ethnic and cultural heritage does not necessarily imply whatever you mean by globalism or supranationalism in the sense of EU. In fact I support local diversity and cultural specificities as long as we see that those are non-essential (that they dont have an ihrerent unquestionable worth) and accept that there are others. The EU is nothing else than another such concept of nation in its very early stage. But it didnt work.
The failure of the EU lies alot more in its purely neoliberal economic finality, the unfair competition between the states, the overboarding lobbyism, its accelerated growth rate and its need for regulation and rationalisation. It has some very positive sides aswell though, which many people and especially the younger generation take for granted.
This inherent fault of the EU has given rise to ultranationalist ambitons and reactionary protectionist movements. People wish to go back to an idealized past where things were supposedly better and they were better off. But they will realize soon enough that this is impossible and that the world has changed since then.
The project of the EU was poisoned from the beginning, and I fear the reactionary nationalist movements that arose from the peoples disgust with it will lead to yet another clash of the european nations and who knows who else. |
| couleur wrote: | | VGAdeadcafe wrote: | | Couleur is conflating "Chauvinistic nationalists" (ultranationalists) with people that are just proud of their nation. [...] |
No I'm not. Nationalists, like the guys described in the first post are not just "proud of their nation". They put their concept of nation on their political agenda and it directly implies the total and absolute political differentiation and delimitation from other people. It implies difference and fear of change.
Though, considering my position on the concept of nation, I even find people beeing proud of their nation funny. Just like peope who are proud of a football team they "support" or something like that. They're also funny. The feeling of pride and humour are apparently mutually exclusive for most of them. Especially the most proud ones. This absence of humour regarding their love of an idea they chose to believe in makes them similar to religious people yet again.
Just look at the Balkan nations. All of them are so much proud of themselves and think the others are the devil.  It seems to me much of that is propaganda and one sided education in history. |
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 16:33 Post subject: |
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What I think is fucking stupid is the argument of "Ohh, you're not a nationalist or patriot so you must hate your country!". No motherfucker, I love my nation, just not in the same way that you do.
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 17:00 Post subject: |
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Well you should give the same benefit of doubt and the same non generalizing approach to the nationalists too.
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Morphineus
VIP Member
Posts: 24883
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 17:07 Post subject: |
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The problem I have with nationalism/patriotism is that it always turns into excess. It hardly ever stays moderate.
I do think the concept of small nations and 454345446 languages is not the way to go forward with this globe. Not that we'll ever get rid of those things anyway. 
Though organized religion has to go first.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14341
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 17:33 Post subject: |
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| Morphineus wrote: | | The problem I have with nationalism/patriotism is that it always turns into excess. It hardly ever stays moderate.[...] |
The same as with religions. Obviously, when you belong to one and really believe in it, at a certain point you need to feel superior since the belief in your nation fuels yours self-worth, the worth of your nation is directly linked to your own. Beeing nationalist implies beeing different and beeing different implies moral, material and esthetic choices that will be more or less worth. If someone makes fun of your nation you feel they make fun of you and your feeling of self. The better way would be to accept differences and not impose your own as better or less worth than the others, but then, why would you put your nationalism on your political agenda?
Just like there are people who defend their brand because their commercial choices define who they are and the percieved worth of those things directly affects their self-worth.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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M4trix
Posts: 9274
Location: Croatia, Adriatic coast (I can see ixi from here)
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 18:35 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 18:44 Post subject: |
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| PumpAction wrote: | | Well you should give the same benefit of doubt and the same non generalizing approach to the nationalists too. |
I should, but I don't always do that. |
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 19:05 Post subject: |
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Just because I am born here and You are born there, means I am better than You. Simple
3080 | ps5 pro
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 19:30 Post subject: |
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I hate my shit country.
Enthoo Evolv ATX TG // Asus Prime x370 // Ryzen 1700 // Gainward GTX 1080 // 16GB DDR4-3200
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Seron
Posts: 379
Location: swedenenenenenenene
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 20:30 Post subject: |
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nationalism is pricey fuck taxes
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WaldoJ
VIP Member
Posts: 32678
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 21:35 Post subject: |
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nationalism sucks only if you're a whiny immigrant who brings his own countries nationalism to any country he decides to call home and does everything he can to be what he was before (russian/polish/german/spanish/italian/canadian/american) what the fuck ever instead of adapting to the country he's paying taxes in. That means not learning the language. Not paying the proper taxes. Not helping the communities apart from the self-segregated community s\he decides to live in.
That's it.
Nationalism isn't bad. It's bad if you don't want to be French (your kids to be French or their grandkids to be French) when you live in France. Nationalism sucks if you don't want to be German (or your kids to be German or their grandkids to be German) living in Germany. Nationalism sucks if you don't want to be Canadian (Or your kids to be Canadian or your grandkids to be Canadian) when you live in Canada. Otherwise nationalism is fantastic.
Adapt and enjoy.
| Sin317 wrote: | | I win, you lose. Or Go fuck yourself. |
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| Posted: Tue, 2nd May 2017 22:38 Post subject: |
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Last edited by paxsali on Thu, 4th Jul 2024 21:13; edited 1 time in total
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M4trix
Posts: 9274
Location: Croatia, Adriatic coast (I can see ixi from here)
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AnarchoS
Posts: 2142
Location: An Archos
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| Posted: Wed, 3rd May 2017 09:19 Post subject: |
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| M4trix wrote: | | Mr.Tinkles wrote: | | What I think is fucking stupid is the argument of "Ohh, you're not a nationalist or patriot so you must hate your country!". No motherfucker, I love my nation, just not in the same way that you do. |
I guess that was addressed to me.  |
If the case were that you're the only one saying stupid shit like that then yes, unfortunately you're not alone. |
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| Posted: Wed, 3rd May 2017 11:09 Post subject: |
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| M4trix wrote: | Hmm...this thread...hmm...@Pumpy, you're clever but you won't fool us ! So, we just have to say something otherwise and get caught in the spiders net. Then you just have to ban us. Clever ! 
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Come on M4trix, just a little rant, a little venting.. just let your true self shine for second
| Bob Barnsen wrote: | | I hate my shit country. |
Vote for shit, receive shit. Stay silent to shit, deserve shit. |
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| Posted: Wed, 3rd May 2017 11:20 Post subject: |
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tonizito
VIP Member
Posts: 51408
Location: Portugal, the shithole of Europe.
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| Posted: Wed, 3rd May 2017 11:37 Post subject: |
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So much hate speech towards nationalism from these mods... tsk tsk
You guys should be more inclusive
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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| Posted: Wed, 3rd May 2017 11:38 Post subject: |
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| tonizito wrote: | So much hate speech towards nationalism from these mods... tsk tsk
You guys should be more inclusive |
Looks at location, puts on trollface.
So y u h8 ur cantri?!? |
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| Posted: Wed, 3rd May 2017 16:06 Post subject: |
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i wrote a poem about nationalism
roses are red
violets are blue
sharia law is my favorite
how about you?
if you think nationalism sucks
you must be stupid and gay
why dont u eat some hay
i wrap my bedsheets around my head and pretend im in the kkk
if you let leonatan cross your border
soon enough your country will be out of order
how can you trust someone who thinks bioshock is a good game
i cant believe someone would like something so lame
donald trump is a very good man
very good man
kim jong un has a cute butt
i hope jurassic park becomes a reality
cockcockcockcockcockcockcockcockcockcockcockcock
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| Posted: Wed, 3rd May 2017 16:31 Post subject: |
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You can only be nationalistic if you can trace your DNA back to ancient Greece.
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| Posted: Wed, 3rd May 2017 16:34 Post subject: |
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deelix
PDIP Member
Posts: 32062
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Wed, 3rd May 2017 17:03 Post subject: |
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dazz beeing dazz. oh how I miss those good old days.
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M4trix
Posts: 9274
Location: Croatia, Adriatic coast (I can see ixi from here)
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Invasor
Moderator
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Location: On the road
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| Posted: Thu, 4th May 2017 01:50 Post subject: |
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M4trix
Posts: 9274
Location: Croatia, Adriatic coast (I can see ixi from here)
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