The moment gaming went mainstream it was all but over. The parasites in suits who know nothing about gaming quickly moved in giving the kids what they want.
Years of the same dumbed down, rehashed horseshit yet people just keep on buying, the so-called masterrace included. Speaks volumes about the mindset of gamers.
I find it amusing that some people think the minority, who would appreciate more complexity and fidelity, could possibly make a single dent in the industry if they all refused to by these modern games.
Here's a hint:
The mainstream is controlling the market. The mainstream is the majority.
We have no power whatsoever. Absolutely none.
Here's another hint:
Even mainstream games can be fun - and they can actually be better than ancient games in SOME ways.
So, we can either enjoy what's there or sit in a corner and whine about "the good old days".
Those are the two options.
How about you use your brain and pick the obvious one.
There's also the fringe cases. Now I don't know about shooters, that's not my thing, but in other areas there has been a huge boom as far as diversity goes - in the RPG market, you've got the AAAs (Witcher 3, DA:I), but you've also got a huge palette of medium-budget (tales of berseria, tyranny) and indie (Darkest Dungeon, Lords of Xulima) titles to suit all appetites - turnbased/actiony, hard/easy, singlecharacter/partybased, you've got it all. Isn't the situation similar with shooters? Like, maybe some shooters are dumbed down while others remain oldschool?
in the RPG market, you've got the AAAs (Witcher 3, DA:I), but you've also got a huge palette of medium-budget (tales of berseria, tyranny) and indie (Darkest Dungeon, Lords of Xulima) titles to suit all appetites - turnbased/actiony, hard/easy, singlecharacter/partybased, you've got it all. Isn't the situation similar with shooters? Like, maybe some shooters are dumbed down while others remain oldschool?
i dont realyl thing so all we have nowadays are AAA shooting galleries, and rare "oldschool-ish" id soft/croteam/FWH title and Arma for the hardcore .... the RPGs are much more diverse and much more titles in each category ... on the shooter side its in 90% cases either tunnel shooting gallery or UbiOpenworld™
Yup Dishonered 2's customizable difficulty is an excellent addition to it, and would be one for any PvE tactical game.
I love games that are easy as well, I fully admit I frequently cheats in RPGs because I love roleplaying as the character I want to play as right from the start, I want my advanced talents right away and not at the end of it for example. But that's fantasy RPG, not a tactical shooter, that's a different premise. It's like when you play a Telltale game, you're not looking for difficulty. What the fuck is the point of game over QTEs if not just pointless mechanics so that you can call it a game and not a visual novel. But when you're playing Rainbow Six, you need that difficulty so the premise of the game is accurate and thematic.
I recently bought Sniper Elite 4 with a friend so we could coop it, we refunded it after the second mission. We played it on the hardest "Authentic" setting and it was garbage. So fucking easy, and there's nothing authentic about it with the minimap, x-rays, tagging, dumb AIs, the fucking aim assist. That's IMMERSION BREAKING. People don't get it and think we just crave punishing gameplay that would take hours to learn and beat. No, I don't give a fuck about challenging and punishing gameplay, like I said I would gladly cheat to beat a game without any shame, but what I want is immersion with the game. I don't want bullet sponge enemies in a WW2 game, I don't want X-rays, I don't want idiotic AIs and when the premise isn't me playing as a super human, I better not be able to do super human bullshit.
I just jumped through that video because watching some WAB usually makes me sick. I haven't seen him talking about ARMA, Squad, Red Orchestra or the upcoming Escape from Tarkov, but I didn't expect he would do. The biggest complaint seems to be the AI so I'll talk a little bit about that.
In the newest generation of shooters the AI might not be as deadly as it used to be, but that's understandable to a degree if we look at things from more than one (narrow) perspective. The AI is influenced by the setting and having waves after waves of arcady modern shooters had an impact on our vision on this subject. But let's be frank about this, an extremely competent AI that could spot you and kill you in a matter of seconds won't have any benefits and would undermine the very nature of these casual shooters. On the other hand, almost every sci-fi shooter did a better job at providing a competent AI because an unrealistic setting provides more options for a developer to toy with the enemies strengths. Yet, for all the loss in efficiency, the AI has gained a whole lot in behavior. We have examples like The Phantom Pain where guards might be shortsighted but they sure do act like soldiers in a war zone searching the area, calling for back up, raising alarms and even commencing mortar barrages. Then there is Mankind Divided which also stands as a great example for AI behavior, a game where policeman are made aware of a situation but as long as they don't know the culprit they are just in an alarmed state.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the AI is generally good. It's quite clear it didn't evolve as we all expected it would after playing Deus Ex or FEAR, but it ain't shit either. But this is a result of the changing consumers which aren't into hardcore games that require time, tactical approaches and patience, so the AI has been adapted to fit within the current trend of bombastic wannabe hollywoodian movies and open world shooters.
an extremely competent AI that could spot you and kill you in a matter of seconds won't have any benefits and would undermine the very nature of these casual shooters.
1. Who wants that? Why is this the assumption? It's far better to have an AI that reacts appropriately to what you're doing than one that kills you straight away. HL2 and early Metal Gear games were great for this. Being flushed out, flanked and ganged up on in coordinated attacks isn't 'spotting and killing you in a matter of seconds'.
I don't know who wants that, I don't for sure. But that's the realistic way, a way which doesn't work well from a gameplay standpoint.
Interinactive wrote:
Nodrim wrote:
We have examples like The Phantom Pain where guards might be shortsighted
They were blind to your presence most of the time, even in broad daylight. The only real way to be detected was to be spotted up close, but that rarely ever had to happen (if ever). Plus if you were quick enough (even with that derp shit turned off that slows time down), you could still prevent the alarm from being sounded. Thankfully there are mods for this.
Did I say they weren't? It was about behavior not capabilities. The TPP AI is clearly inefficient, but acts in an awesome way. Stands as a good example of how good features are ruined as they have to be dumbed down in order to be enjoyable in an open world environment.
Interinactive wrote:
Nodrim wrote:
but it ain't shit either
I can think of over 20 recent examples where this is untrue. Even ARMA3 still has AI issues. How many recent examples can you think of where it excels?
The ARMA series always had a shit AI because enemies tend to have no problems spotting you through foliage and they all shoot like they are a better version of Vassili Zaitsev.
As for examples: GTA V, DX:MD, Dishonored 2 and even The Division does a good job for a loot shooter.
Once again, I'm not saying the AI is good, some things have progressed more than others and clearly not as much as they should have in more than 10 years. There are examples of games with decent and good AI, but one of the reasons there aren't more is the consumers . (Remember the removal of Portal 2 harder puzzles because the testers couldn't complete them?)
Last edited by Nodrim on Tue, 21st Feb 2017 11:45; edited 5 times in total
They were blind to your presence most of the time, even in broad daylight. The only real way to be detected was to be spotted up close, but that rarely ever had to happen (if ever). Plus if you were quick enough (even with that derp shit turned off that slows time down), you could still prevent the alarm from being sounded. Thankfully there are mods for this.
Yeah the WAB video above had a scene from that as well, guard just stood there looking the other way, player shoots said guard in the arm causing a reaction but it still takes a couple of seconds for the guard to even turn around and at a distance of 20 meters said guard is now looking straight at the player who is just standing there.
Guard starts patrolling and moving towards the player but it's not until the distance meter falls below 10 that the guard actually spots the player and does that whole "!" reaction thing and promptly gets shot in the head before he can call the alarm.
And before that there was another sequence of the player riding just a bit over 20m from a defended installation slowly passing by multiple guards while trotting around the place and he isn't spotted at all.
I never really noticed it though then again I went loud for most of the game, stealth was doable (And probably intended.) but I tended to just shoot everyone maybe sparing the A and S rank ones for tranquil darts or similar so they could be recruited.
(If you're good at stealth with the way the AI "works" the game is probably even easier but it's not exactly challenging even if you go all out until you encounter these "special" units.)
EDIT: Though I guess with AI being a bit spotty for almost ten years now in most games it's not something you'd immediately notice outside of comparisons like these.
Hidden and Dangerous 2 which was also used in the above video and then compared to Wildlands for example.
(Or the combat in Jedi Outcast / Jedi Academy and then For Honor which was also showcased.)
Half Life (2) and FEAR (1) also had some really good scripting for the AI making them more believable simulating using more tactical decisions such as grenades together with flanking and without any strange x-ray visions or all-seeing mini-map.
And then you have games like Far Cry (1) where the AI well they certainly react but they almost always know where you are and they have pinpoint bullet and grenade accuracy (Made ridiculous by the toned down language having them try to act all nice but macho.) though then again the main character is wearing one of the ugliest outfits (Or at least shirts.) in the entire history of gaming.
And then Operation Flashpoint 1 and the ArmA series basically allow the player to custom tailor the AI from something like Call of Duty "Stormtrooper" to Skynet Terminator.
(Or however that comparison could go, they even have some extra option for super-AI on top of the other sliders and settings.)
Great video and sums up my thoughts on gaming 2010+, it's not just AI though, its the design philosophy of no challenge, no effort, and constant rewarding the player that for me just equates to boredom. >> Then you can start talking about unethically fucking over the customer at every turn in every way possible. This is how EA and Activision have dominated the entire industry into submission and crushed every good studio in the process.
Unfortunately Casus as right and the closest we have is crowd-sourced titles (And even then I think Larian, Obsidian and InExile are struggling to stay afloat). Doesn't bother me too much anymore, I still enjoy playing all the old stuff ( I'm playing openxcom and quake at the moment ) there is occasionally the odd rare great title like Arma. Ultimately think this is the last gaming PC i'll probably own, there's just no games really worth having a powerful rig for and old stuff is better.
I love how original xcom was made by less than 10 guys, fit on a 1.44mb floppy and is still unsurpassed and more fun, replayable than anything similar.
The A.I. in most games are just plain dumb and how difficultly differentiated in games it's based more on taken more/less damage, having lower/higher hp etc. Which I find quite sad as A.I. should stand for the intelligence. I'm also quite sick of A.I. for example when you shoot them, they know where you are exactly and that they will find you everywhere. As well as every other enemy on the map and other dumb A.I. moves like mentioning above. HL2 is idd a good example how it should be and how it could evolve.
People here are hilarious. "I don't normally like his videos but I liked this one" = "he rightfully shits on the crap games I like, such as W3 and MGS5 but ha ha he showed some shit games and some old games so I like this video because I must appear sophisticated, now back to playing my preordered garbage"
There isn't much to add really to what's been covered already. It's a tragic (and more importantly, deliberate) de-evolution that has permanently affected our hobby, and won't simply go away, on the contrary. I've been whining about this since forever, and I sadly ended up realizing that what for me may be a serious issue, it's an...awesome feature for others.
The 99% of the AAA games released today are affected by some sort of serious impairment. If we exclude some extremely rare examples (Arma definitely is one of them), practically nothing is free from the curse of the willingly lobotomized AI, "show yourself wherever you are(tm)", automatized movements designed around the gamepad, contextual buttons and cutscenes, HUDs cluttered with typical 'next gen' aberrations such as wallhack visions, mark and win, gotta-reveal-em-all GPS minimaps, worthless last known positions, handholding-powered arrows and markers for those who are deficient enough to not have any environmental awareness whatsoever, the list is always long and always the same.
The only way for me to still have fun (occasionally) with triple-A productions is to resort to silly compromises, such as mods or tweaks to disable the horrid invasive interfaces, or the deliberate gimping(R) by creating rules for myself in order to avoid the stupidly overpowered powers/abilities that inevitably break the already weakened balance (I recently-ish did it in Menkind Divided and TW3 before that), or any other methods of adaptation that however...don't affect the flawed AI in any way unfortunately, since that's another beast entirely. So yeah, for old time gamers it's really become some sort of depressing survival of the "fittest" instead of the glorious technological future that we were envisioning decades ago, before the derp took over so vehemently.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
hidden & dangerous 2, I thought I was the only one who played that
Quote:
then it just stopped
It was indeed a great game, brought a lot of memories back when I saw that footage. I don't remember it being that brutal (except the map that he showed, which was One of the first levels, if not the first, in the game if I remember correctly).
By the way, Mack was very wrong about the Witcher 3, I still stand by that. He focused entirely on the combat (which wasn't perfect I admit and he made valid points), but the rest of the game more than makes up for it, which he ignored completely.
I'd watch more of his reviews if only he'd get rid of that fucking bell of his.
The most 'difficult' aspect of H&D2 was probably the teammates' management, along with the fact that the game didn't offer any visual helps besides the generic X in the map showing the objectives.
One had to figure out things by himself, which is exactly what's missing in the majority of modern games, there was constant challenge and you never felt like an overpowered Rambo. Same quality that also characterized the original Ghost Recon, or Operation Flashpoint, Rainbow 6, Swat..the list is a long (and sad) one.
edit:
Speaking of which, it's a shame that no one has ever made a widescreen patch for it *shakes fist*
I agree.
I was able to finish hidden and dangerous 2 as a kid so it couldnt be THAT hard.
but I agree with everything. Games now are mostly shit... or at least not as good to me because i played all those amazing games. For me it was lasting up to 2011/2012... then then after it slowed down, not many good games were coming out. I totally love 360 era and there are many games I love (dead rising, darkness, gears of war trilogy) but it started the trend downward with some games later in its generation.
360 era was amazing for atmosphere and graphics but gameplay did started going down after a while. (again, no!!! gears of war trilogy is great!!! There are no enemy headlights and bullshit in that game. it is quite hard and awesome)
Seriously... I was playing battlefield 1 campaign with my gf week ago and she couldn't get into it because enemy soldiers were highlighted behind walls, rocks.
Now every game I see is full of markers, side shit(not quests, just shit), highlights, microtransactions and so on.
Gems like Half Life 2, Chronicles of Riddick, fear or even Doom3 are long gone now.
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
oh dear him again ... mention some titles ... then forget those that set the golden standard like I.G.I ,Mafia 1 , Half-Life 1 and H&D 1 (part 2 that he shows is so easy ,you just eat health kits and go lone wolf all the time ...lol)
one said your shit in FPS , let me teach you to be good
the other your a shit driver , let me show you how its done
now games just say : YOU WIN HERE A PRIZE ... oh let me OPEN THAT DOOR FOR YOU
oh dear him again ... mention some titles ... then forget those that set the golden standard like I.G.I ,Mafia 1 , Half-Life 1 and H&D 1 (part 2 that he shows is so easy ,you just eat health kits and go lone wolf all the time ...lol)
one said your shit in FPS , let me teach you to be good
the other your a shit driver , let me show you how its done
now games just say : YOU WIN HERE A PRIZE ... oh let me OPEN THAT DOOR FOR YOU
lol. It's not like he now have to list every title released until 2004 or whatever.
We can add up and add up... oh he missed this, oh and he missed that, oh but he did not mentioned that game !!! get over it
(fuck You. I did not replayed mafia in years )
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
Isn't this why gamers play more multiplayer games now? I mean the point where AI stopped evolving and got downgraded is also when CoD, Battlefield and started their online advance. Yes, single-player in today's shooters has so many "build-in cheats" but mostly because a lot of gamers see it as a "leisure gaming" to just play and relax. And everyone who wants some challenge plays against real people, and then play ranked or competitive versus people with your skill level.
In my opinion companies just gave up the idea to waste resources to improve the AI because people will be (probably) always smarter than an AI. Will be nice to play a game with some advanced AI but even then I think a multiplayer game will be more profitable so the big players make their singleplayer games accessible to more players. And I am not defending this. I also hate how easy modern games have become but am just trying to find an explanation for it.
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and other dumb A.I. moves like mentioning above. HL2 is idd a good example how it should be and how it could evolve.
One of the first levels, if not the first, in the game if I remember correctly).
*shakes fist*
)
