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sTo0z
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 Posted: Thu, 5th Jul 2012 23:34 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | I assume PC vs. consoles? Well, I don't think you hit a brick wall as this when you talk to me, but if you do, let me know. 
Or you mean piracy? I still can't get over the fact you made an analogue between piracy and child pornography.  |
lol, I mean anything. People ignore my posts completely, reverse their statements, make double standards, bring up irrelevant issues, take shit out of context, act stupid and blind, on and on and on no matter what I say no matter how plain I make it.
I could defend that statement easily, but I won't. It's not the place and it's done and gone. ;p "Bury the hatchet." as they say.
Latest example: I couldn't even get away with disliking a movie without bringing the entirety of America into it... lol. |
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Thu, 5th Jul 2012 23:38 Post subject: |
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Which movie?
But America always gets a special treatment on this forum. Why you take offense? It's bullshit most of the time, and you know it.
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| Posted: Thu, 5th Jul 2012 23:39 Post subject: |
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Sausje... You can't be serious about different navigation, if the guy (which by the way has clearly no real background knowledge about any of the systems, just some user-"experience") opens the native webbrowser and a 3rd party app aka youtube (developed by google!).
If I make an Android application that ignored the back button and only goes back with the volume down button, would that make the android platform inconsistent?
Am not going to defend apple any further though, I once tried to use the shitty contact app on that thing oh god. I am a happy Android user, but for the right reasons 
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Thu, 5th Jul 2012 23:45 Post subject: |
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Oh but hold on, these videos aren't about the developers.
From a developer point of view, yes, iOS is much easier to work with. I'm not going to argue that point, because even with my limited dabbling I've noticed that. Only downside is that Obj-C really isn't as clean as it could be, but it's not like Java's any better.
As a user however, I still prefer Android. What that guy says in the first few minutes of the first part is exactly true: many common things simply are not possible as a user on iOS. Moreover, because of the ridiculously closed ecosystem, the developers can't improve on the bad things Apple does either. What's more annoying is that iOS is pretty damn fucking stagnant. iOS 6 is a huge disappointment to me. Even Android 4.1 is more interesting (albeit just slightly).
But unlike some people here, I see the pros and cons on both platforms, especially because I've used both extensively - again as a user. A former colleague of mine who had never touched an Android phone until 6 months ago when he started as the lead mobile designer for a phone provider and always said it was shit (even though he had never used one for more than 5 minutes) now says that Google's UX is far better. Mind you, this is a guy who has never used any form of Linux, has never used Windows and is scared of the terminal in OS X. All his life, all he's used is Apple and *he* says Google's UX is better.
On other fronts, Apple has a few advantages. The "easier to use" argument is bullshit, and only used by clueless fucks who haven't actually used Android. What they do very well though, is gestures and multitouch. On that front, Google can still improve; particularly the four finger multi-tasking switch is something that would be good.
It's the same bullshit as Windows versus OS X; both have their pros and cons and neither is superior over the other. Only difference there is that MS have the more pleasant platform to develop on rather than Apple.
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| Posted: Thu, 5th Jul 2012 23:52 Post subject: |
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Says the guy with an iPhone up his ass 
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Thu, 5th Jul 2012 23:57 Post subject: |
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@Paul
Well, let's remember Xcode is free, while the Visual Studio Express offering is very limited. Having worked with Xcode and llvm, if it didn't crash as often, I'd say it's a pretty good IDE. It just crashes. Real shame, as that is the de facto development tool for OS X and iOS development.
Where is Google's Xcode? Where is Google's Interface Builder? Where is Google's SDK+NDK integration inside Google's Xcode? What a shame.
But truly, what were you expecting out of iOS6? Let's look at user-level changes as opposed to API changes. What did you expect? I know you dislike the keyboard. Did you really expect it to change drastically? What were you expecting? It's always incremental. Or did you actually believe the rumors of widgets, completely redesigned spring board, etc? That was unrealistic.
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:13 Post subject: |
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Imagine if Android took away.. widget compatable desktops, live wallpapers, quick settings in the status bar etc etc; and left the whole OS as just being the app drawer?
I'm not sure people would like it.
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sausje
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:15 Post subject: |
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That is what defines Android, taking that away wouldn't make it Android anymore.
That's just a plain stupid thing to imagine.
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
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LeoNatan
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sausje
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sTo0z
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:34 Post subject: |
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Werelds
Special Little Man
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:41 Post subject: |
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| LeoNatan wrote: | @Paul
Well, let's remember Xcode is free, while the Visual Studio Express offering is very limited. Having worked with Xcode and llvm, if it didn't crash as often, I'd say it's a pretty good IDE. It just crashes. Real shame, as that is the de facto development tool for OS X and iOS development.
Where is Google's Xcode? Where is Google's Interface Builder? Where is Google's SDK+NDK integration inside Google's Xcode? What a shame.
But truly, what were you expecting out of iOS6? Let's look at user-level changes as opposed to API changes. What did you expect? I know you dislike the keyboard. Did you really expect it to change drastically? What were you expecting? It's always incremental. Or did you actually believe the rumors of widgets, completely redesigned spring board, etc? That was unrealistic. |
I didn't expect anything, but I did expect something. I'm not the only one who dislikes the keyboard, it's iOS annoyance number one. Safari is pretty high up on the list for a lot of people as well.
I don't expect Apple to make any core principle changes. I did expect them to keep listening to their goddamn user base though. You do realise that's why iOS has its notifications now right?
I can write a very long post about both platforms, with which I could piss off a lot of people just for getting the facts out. Simply put, they are that both have a lot to learn from each other. Anyone who says either is perfect and has nothing to learn from the other is just as dumb as all the idiots saying Jobs was an amazing inventor/engineer/designer.
As for the development stuff: I'll reply to that tomorrow, Breaking Bad time now
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sausje
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:43 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | | You do realise that's why iOS has its notifications now right? |
Not because Android had it?! 
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sausje
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:50 Post subject: |
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But that is with jailbroken right?
Ah fuck, you removed post -.-
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LeoNatan
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:54 Post subject: |
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Yes, it's with JB. So? Your ROM isn't custom? It's easier to jailbreak than install a ROM. Yes, it's that easy.
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sausje
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:55 Post subject: |
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Ofc my rom is custom, but it's a feature in Android itself anyway as stock.
Btw, custom rom is -> download zip -> put on phone -> reboot into recovery and install. Not that hard...
Proud member of Frustrated Association of International Losers Failing Against the Gifted and Superior (F.A.I.L.F.A.G.S)
Last edited by sausje on Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:58; edited 1 time in total
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sTo0z
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:58 Post subject: |
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| sausje wrote: | But that is with jailbroken right?
Ah fuck, you removed post -.- |
Honestly I don't know why people make this argument, that something has to be modified to be good, and that it's some sort of negative.
Almost everyone on the planet modifies any purchase for maximum potential.
Houses, cars, food recipes... Everything. No one buys something for it's straight use outta' the box anymore, it's about where the device can go, how much potential it has. Do you leave your PC outta' the box the way it came when you buy it? ;p
Even in the console area on this very forum, you have people that like one system, but choose another as soon as it's more mod-able.
I like iOS after all the tweaks you can do with it, for me the potential is greater with the power of what I can do with it, not because it's better/worse than something vanilla outta' the box.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:58 Post subject: |
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The finger stuff is stock in iOS too.
The util I posted, where you can control the cursor from the keyboard is for JB.
You really have no clue about iOS do you.
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sausje
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 00:59 Post subject: |
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@sTo0z:
I just wondered, because the guy said that it was impossible to do something like that in the video.
That's why i asked if that was with JB or not, no other reason.
| LeoNatan wrote: | | You really have no clue about iOS do you. |
No i don't, i don't have anyone with Apple products that i know.
I did work for Apple in Maastricht, but when i stole €800,- plus the first ipod (that wasn't mainstream back then) i got kinda fired 
But other then that, i never had anything to do with Apple anymore.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 01:03 Post subject: |
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So before presenting so called "GOOD arguement made about why Apple and it's products are shit" you ought to at least try one or two so at least it appears you know what you are talking about.
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sausje
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 01:07 Post subject: |
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All my posts are based on the information that i had, and if i'm wrong i admit it without a problem. But i have to have solid proof for it.
And FYI, i know i made that mistake in my spelling, no need to keep bashing with it...
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 01:11 Post subject: |
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No, I wasn't bashing your spelling (didn't even notice it until now). What I was bashing was your statement. One video on the internet (or five ) are not good argument. You have to have a feel for something yourself, or you cannot really criticize it. You can criticize the price, the general idea behind it, etc., but not how it is in use - because you haven't used it. As was said before, both platforms have good sides, as well as sides that require improvements. You cannot make a blanket statement that one is GOOD and the other SHIT, when you haven't even tried it. Personally, I think that you would be surprised by iOS+JB, but you probably won't even give it the change to see for yourself.
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sausje
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 01:15 Post subject: |
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Well, how am i supposed to test something like that if i don't even have access to it?!
I wouldn't mind sitting down with an iphone/ipad and see what possibilities it has, but i just can't.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 01:18 Post subject: |
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I would say go to Apple store, but that's crap because you won't see the jailbreak capabilities. :\
Also the macfaggotry in an Apple store is something no soul should experience.
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Werelds
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 09:39 Post subject: |
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| sausje wrote: | | Not because Android had it?! |
Not directly. Android had them and iOS users saw the potential of it on their systems. That last part is why Apple did them.
Even if they did do it because Google did it, that's fine. Windows Phone, Android and iOS need to borrow each other's ideas, that's what competition is all about (although Apple are likely to try and prevent that with one of the bullshit patents, with thanks to USPTO).
Now, as for the development situation: Google dropped the ball there. Everything you mention is true Leo. On the other hand, Xcode is not as good as VSE either I think. MS need to get cheaper versions of VSP out, which allow you to buy one fit for your needs. Paying some money for a faster, stable IDE is absolutely worth it.
There is also the aspect of third party IDEs though. JetBrains' IDEA platform is way ahead of Eclipse for example; it's also Java based and despite that, it's ridiculously fast. It is the only platform I know of that has code completion and indexing which is as fast as Visual Studio. I haven't worked with XCode enough yet to really form my opinion about it, but from what I've seen so far it can slow down quite a bit. In addition, JetBrains are also working hard on it, with the UI builder coming in IDEA 12.
Once the current projects are finally out of the way and I can start my iOS development, I will definitely be giving AppCode a try. Php-/WebStorm are the best web IDEs by far; garus is equally happy with RubyMine; ReSharper is nothing short of brilliant either; so I have no doubt AppCode will be good as well. Now whether they can support everything Xcode does, I don't know yet; some things may have been locked out obviously.
You may consider it a bad thing, but it fits with the Android approach.
API wise neither Google nor Apple has fully documented everything properly, or in a way that makes it easy to figure shit out. Again, this is where MS shines; at least they used to, but I highly doubt that went to shit with Windows Phone.
This is the front where Google needs to take control. It needs UI paradigms like Apple has. Mind you, you can build a standard UI just as quickly on Android as you can on iOS <codewise that is> - once you know all the elements. So yeah, a UI builder is key to this. They also need to start controlling updates. Android had OTA updates long before iOS, but with them allowing not only manufacturers but also providers to control who gets which version and when, it takes ages and the whole OTA idea is a bit of a waste. It's not because of drivers and such, because all the chip manufacturers have drivers ready to go for their clients. Some can even just use freely available ones, so they're already baked in. The delays come from incompetence, these companies don't have people who really know the ins and outs of it. Heck, if the drivers in question were made available to the community they'd get it done quicker, CyanogenMod would've been on 4.0 ages ago if they had all the drivers. All because these people actually have a clue what they're doing.
When it comes to fragmentation, if you disregard the platform version for a minute, Android is no worse than iOS. There are 2 main targets: tablets and phones. Within each of those, you have high and low DPI targets (and Google included medium as well). On both you need different resolution assets if you really want to make your application shine. Both are in fact capable of scaling them, but it will always look better with proper assets. However, it's just the assets. The actual design doesn't change, as both platforms pick the correct asset based on the device automatically. Unless you're an idiot and start setting the UI structure up with fixed sizes -which is discouraged on both-, you'll be fine. As a programmer that really doesn't affect you, that's designer's work.
Google's main problem is the version fragmentation. What they need to do is force OTA updates from their side, simply disabling any vendor software -which they can detect quite easily- until it's updated. In addition, they need to do driver support from their side as well. If any manufacturer wants their part supported in Android, go to Google and become part of the program. That's why MS have their strict hardware regulations, that's why Apple can do updates so easily.
There, serious enough for you? 
Can do the same thing from a user's perspective, but I'll be more on Google's side there than on Apple's like I am here 
Edit: also, in before "LOL IDE, VIM RULZ" - no it doesn't. A solid, fast IDE will save you tons of time. I'd love to see you do a VC++ application in Notepad as quickly as in Visual Studio. Faster access to the files, easier to navigate between them, code completion, proper build / deployment tools (or access to them) - all reasons why a good IDE makes you more productive. This isn't directed at anyone in this thread, but it's one of the first things you get as reply whenever IDEs are mentioned
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garus
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 11:31 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:42; edited 1 time in total
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sausje
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 16:14 Post subject: |
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http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1753131
Don't know if this is something for you devs, a little tutor he's working on for developing a game on Android.
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 16:25 Post subject: |
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I've used iOS intensively on my ipod 4 and I played with Android 4 on my new phone, from my perspective (the user) the difference between iOS and Android is like day and night. I don't take rooted and jailbroken devices into account, the stock Android is extremely customizable compared to iOS. I never really understood the Android infatuation before, but I do now. I can pretty much do anything and everything, there are virtually no restriction. I really do not understand Apple's anal behaviour now since I don't see Google going bankrupt or something because they left Android wide open for users. I have no idea how the previous Android versions were since I didn't use them, but Android is much more user friendly and smooth than iOS 5 imo.
I'm not a dev though, so I have no clue what the problems there might be.
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LeoNatan
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| Posted: Fri, 6th Jul 2012 16:30 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | They also need to start controlling updates. Android had OTA updates long before iOS, but with them allowing not only manufacturers but also providers to control who gets which version and when, it takes ages and the whole OTA idea is a bit of a waste. It's not because of drivers and such, because all the chip manufacturers have drivers ready to go for their clients. Some can even just use freely available ones, so they're already baked in. The delays come from incompetence, these companies don't have people who really know the ins and outs of it. Heck, if the drivers in question were made available to the community they'd get it done quicker, CyanogenMod would've been on 4.0 ages ago if they had all the drivers. All because these people actually have a clue what they're doing.
When it comes to fragmentation, if you disregard the platform version for a minute, Android is no worse than iOS. There are 2 main targets: tablets and phones. Within each of those, you have high and low DPI targets (and Google included medium as well). On both you need different resolution assets if you really want to make your application shine. Both are in fact capable of scaling them, but it will always look better with proper assets. However, it's just the assets. The actual design doesn't change, as both platforms pick the correct asset based on the device automatically. Unless you're an idiot and start setting the UI structure up with fixed sizes -which is discouraged on both-, you'll be fine. As a programmer that really doesn't affect you, that's designer's work.
Google's main problem is the version fragmentation. What they need to do is force OTA updates from their side, simply disabling any vendor software -which they can detect quite easily- until it's updated. In addition, they need to do driver support from their side as well. If any manufacturer wants their part supported in Android, go to Google and become part of the program. That's why MS have their strict hardware regulations, that's why Apple can do updates so easily. |
Split between phone and pad versions is not fragmentation on iOS or Android. The two require completely different paradigms and copying the phone sku to the pad with different graphic assets is just wrong. They can share code, but the pad product should be a pad product. (This is another problem of Android apps - why are there so few pad apps?) Regarding double resolution assets, on iOS it is extremely easy to use the double assets - if the low-res file is "image.png", the high-res is "image@2x.png" and it's loaded normally. These images will now be loaded automatically. It is possible to share code with iPad also - add ~ipad suffix and iOS will load them on the pad. Hardly any problem. Not sure how this works on Android because they are not exactly 1x and 2x. But if you design your UI intelligently, it should function properly on slightly different resolutions and aspect ratios (again, not between different configurations). It is like this for Android as well. And anyone who claims iPad is a large-screen iPod from UI standpoint has not touched a tablet in his life.
Regarding OTA, what can be said? The OEM and carrier cartels hold all the cards, and Apple are the only one to use their power to break it. Even Microsoft caved in from their initial announcement that devices would be receiving updates OTA unrelated to carriers with WP7. Apple did a deal with AT&T initially and became so powerful they didn't even care anymore and opened up for Verizon as well as unlocked devices and AT&T got fuck all to say about it. Google is now at a similar position, but they are too chickenshit to do anything about it. Even Google's own devices, if bought through a carrier, do not receive updates from Google until the carrier OKs it, if at all. It's pathetic. They can decide any day now to enforce update release. But no, they rather the market is saturated with countless HTC/Samsung/LG/Motorola devices with no regulation whatsoever. Of course they do, Apple with one device manages to hold their ground, while Google's OS requires spray and pray tactics. The difference at this point is Google has power. They can have demands and the power to bend OEM and carriers. But no, Google gives free hand hurr durr. Microsoft marketshare is so pathetic, their bend is at least understandable. |
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