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Frant
King's Bounty
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Location: Your Mom
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Posted: Tue, 29th Jun 2021 05:21 Post subject: |
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Another "teaser" to me since it focused on showing off visuals (space battles??!), not on certain plot elements. Foundation, as hard sci-fi, is heavily inspired by the history of the roman empire and how empires always fall. The sci fi setting is a backdrop for the actual story which is about power, ideology, science, knowledge, intrigues, secrets and fear, not "pew pew" stuff.
I don't have high hopes for this one at all as a die hard Asimov fan since we Asimov fans tend to be very discerning about attempts to bring his universe to the screen, esp. after utter pile of shit that was I, Robot which may have been a mildly entertaining Will Smith flick for the ignorant masses. For us Asimov fans who've read most or all of his vast catalogue of works it was basically pissing on his legacy and taking a stinking dump on the story.
In fact, there are few epic works that have translated well to the small and big screen. Lord of the Rings was a total surprise since it fit quite well with the imagery I had created when I first read the books as a 12-year old. Taking an epic masterpiece as LotR and transforming it into movie format is ridiculously difficult and Philippa Boyens basically had to rewrite the script (either as a whole or parts of it) on a nearly daily basis during the making of all three LotR movies.
To even undertake a project that was considered impossible, condensing the story by picking the key events in the books, trying to infuse detail without narrative or long dialogue.. I didn't mind the various minor changes they did in order to make the movies work better as far as pacing, letting the viewer learn about the world by cleverly picked locations and camera shots, an amazing cast where Peter and his closest team members managed to pick people for the characters that looked similar to the fuzzy images we generated in our heads when we first read it. The whole Tom Bombadil stuff in the first book wasn't used which makes sense since those chapters didn't make any difference to the storyline.
Now we have Foundation which could be viewed as a hard sci-fi epic of the same scale as Tolkiens work (well, except for the invention of new languages and writing down a timeline of Middle Earth which is more like a bookshelf of history books than fiction), spanning thousands of years although the main story takes place during a ~300+ year timeline. The biggest issue is that Asimov put in so many necessary details to build the world and give the reader and understanding of what's going on. Obviously the show makers are basically doing a show "inspired" by Asimov's books, characters, certain events and names but it won't be the Foundation I know after having read all the books (7 books) many times.
I'm wary.

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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VonMisk
Posts: 9435
Location: Hatredland
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Posted: Tue, 29th Jun 2021 05:58 Post subject: |
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Frant wrote: | Spoiler: | Another "teaser" to me since it focused on showing off visuals (space battles??!), not on certain plot elements. Foundation, as hard sci-fi, is heavily inspired by the history of the roman empire and how empires always fall. The sci fi setting is a backdrop for the actual story which is about power, ideology, science, knowledge, intrigues, secrets and fear, not "pew pew" stuff.
I don't have high hopes for this one at all as a die hard Asimov fan since we Asimov fans tend to be very discerning about attempts to bring his universe to the screen, esp. after utter pile of shit that was I, Robot which may have been a mildly entertaining Will Smith flick for the ignorant masses. For us Asimov fans who've read most or all of his vast catalogue of works it was basically pissing on his legacy and taking a stinking dump on the story.
In fact, there are few epic works that have translated well to the small and big screen. Lord of the Rings was a total surprise since it fit quite well with the imagery I had created when I first read the books as a 12-year old. Taking an epic masterpiece as LotR and transforming it into movie format is ridiculously difficult and Philippa Boyens basically had to rewrite the script (either as a whole or parts of it) on a nearly daily basis during the making of all three LotR movies.
To even undertake a project that was considered impossible, condensing the story by picking the key events in the books, trying to infuse detail without narrative or long dialogue.. I didn't mind the various minor changes they did in order to make the movies work better as far as pacing, letting the viewer learn about the world by cleverly picked locations and camera shots, an amazing cast where Peter and his closest team members managed to pick people for the characters that looked similar to the fuzzy images we generated in our heads when we first read it. The whole Tom Bombadil stuff in the first book wasn't used which makes sense since those chapters didn't make any difference to the storyline.
Now we have Foundation which could be viewed as a hard sci-fi epic of the same scale as Tolkiens work (well, except for the invention of new languages and writing down a timeline of Middle Earth which is more like a bookshelf of history books than fiction), spanning thousands of years although the main story takes place during a ~300+ year timeline. The biggest issue is that Asimov put in so many necessary details to build the world and give the reader and understanding of what's going on. Obviously the show makers are basically doing a show "inspired" by Asimov's books, characters, certain events and names but it won't be the Foundation I know after having read all the books (7 books) many times.
I'm wary. |
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Exactly my concerns. Especially that Goyer is attached to the project and his writting run is mostly made of disappointment with rare examples of decent work.
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Posted: Tue, 29th Jun 2021 06:46 Post subject: |
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https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0275286/
Yeah, he hasn't written a decent thing in over a decade. No reason to assume he's going to start now. 
1 and 2 are still amazing.
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HIz
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Surray
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Posted: Mon, 13th Sep 2021 17:25 Post subject: |
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I read 4 of the books about a year ago after finishing Dune and really enjoyed them but I think they'd be too slow and boring for a mainstream audience
surely they will make it more exciting somehow
does look good visually though
Likot Mosuskekim, Woodcutter cancels Sleep: Interrupted by Elephant.
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Ankh
Posts: 23251
Location: Trelleborg
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Posted: Mon, 13th Sep 2021 20:12 Post subject: |
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Surray wrote: | I read 4 of the books about a year ago after finishing Dune and really enjoyed them but I think they'd be too slow and boring for a mainstream audience
surely they will make it more exciting somehow
does look good visually though |
Tbh the first book is among the best scifi ever written...unfortunatly the rest are not as good as it.
shitloads of new stuff in my pc. Cant keep track of it all.
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tonizito
Posts: 51251
Location: Portugal, the shithole of Europe.
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Posted: Mon, 13th Sep 2021 20:35 Post subject: |
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HIz wrote: | no one posted this ? |
Quote: | shitpple tv "original" |
boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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headshot
VIP Member
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Posted: Fri, 24th Sep 2021 19:09 Post subject: |
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Foundation.S01E01.HDR.2160p.WEB.H265-GGEZ
Foundation.S01E02.HDR.2160p.WEB.H265-GGEZ
May the NFOrce be with you always.
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zTurbo
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Posted: Sat, 25th Sep 2021 14:54 Post subject: |
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Frant
King's Bounty
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Location: Your Mom
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Posted: Sun, 26th Sep 2021 00:56 Post subject: |
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Yeah, it could've been much worse. I had extremely low expectations going in. It's not a straight adaptation, beyond Hari Seldon. Several characters (well, the ones I recognize) have been changed and some character stories felt as if they've been invented for the show and replaced Asimovs original. I don't mind if they change some characters if it's done to make a visual adaptation work.
The first episode was a good introduction although I believe a lot of people who haven't read the books felt quite confused when it comes to what the whole show is about. The second episode explains some of that. Overall there's not a whole lot of exposition, instead leaving the viewer to discover it throughout the episodes. I was wondering how they'd sort that out since the original first book was full of exposition intertwined with the rest of the writing without feeling like you were reading a synopsis about the very book you're reading, something Asimov was really good at.
The second episode took a weird left turn even though the overall story arc is correct. I won't spoil it here though and I need to watch the entire season before I can make a proper assessment. My memory of the finer details are also rusty so I'll probably go find my collection of Asimov books and reread the Elijah Bailey and Foundation series (the ones written by Asimov, not the books other people wrote after his death).
I do have plenty of criticism though. The style is very visual (as we've seen in the trailers), it's clear this isn't an attempt to be faithful Isaac Asimovs masterpiece. The character of Gaal, the math prodigy has been completely rewritten (gender change, backstory completely fabricated etc.).
I didn't expect it to be a truly faithful adaptation since it's veeeery difficult to transfer something as complex and dense as the hard sci-fi writing by Asimov in Foundation. They didn't try to do that though, they're taking the overall story arc and key events and painting it with broad strokes to create something that would expose Asimovs legendary Foundation trilogy to the masses instead of catering to us sci-fi nerds who love the intelligent hardcore sci-fi that Asimov and a couple of his colleagues wrote.
Something that REALLY annoys me in this show at the moment is (and this is a MAJOR SPOILER). You have been warned:
Spoiler: | Demerzel, the female android/robot working for the Emperor(s)... total fabrication since Eto Demerzel was a guise used by R. Daneel Oliwav, the spacer built humanoid robot with the most advanced positronic brain at the time of his creation.
He never appeared anywhere in the original Foundation trilogy. He only appeared in the two prequels in the Foundation series (both written many years after the original trilogy) and in the 7th and last book in the series (and in the Foundation time-line).
In Prelude to Foundation, the first of two prequels to Foundation that tells the history of Hari Seldon arriving on Trantor many years earlier to study, teach and work on psychohistory, Hari Seldon is guided and befriended by R. Daneel Oliwav under the guise of journalist Chetter Hummin while pushing Hari Seldon to complete the work on Psychohistory as well as the idea that the Empire is going to fall.
The Eto Demerzel in the show, a female version (doesn't really matter), doesn't even remotely remind me of R. Daneel Oliwav. Being bound by the 3+1 laws of robotics, he (well, she in the show) shouldn't show such cold behavior. Demerzel shouldn't even be there in the first place since R.Daneel Oliwav as Demerzel had left Trantor by the time Foundation started.
But I guess being a more loose adaptation, Goyer and the writers took various freedoms to bring in some pieces of Asimov lore that wasn't in the original trilogy to flesh it out for people new to Asimov as well as those of us who are real Asimov fans (I've been an Asimov "fanatic" for ~30 years).
Oh, the whole "Cloned Emperor x 3, Dawn - Day - Dusk" thing is a pure invention by Goyer and company. It butt heads with my knowledge/memory of the emperors in the foundation series where the Emperors during Hari Seldons time were invariably weak and far removed from the reality of the empire (couldn't see the real state/weakness of the empire) and thus the empire kept weakening with every emperor (some weren't emperors very long - being assassinated), held together with imperial military band-aid and the illusion of power that still emanated from Trantor. Goyer said that the purpose was to display how an empire becomes stale as the Emperor is forever rigid and unchanging, re-interpreting Asimovs descriptions of the Emperors before, during and after the main Hari Seldon sequence.
Quote: | Foundation, the Apple TV+ series that begins September 24, makes a lot of changes to Isaac Asimov's books that it adapts. Among those is the creation of a genetic dynasty that rules the Galactic Empire. Emperor Cleon the First — he appears briefly in the books — decides he's going to clone himself over and over, so he can forever rule the galaxy. At any one time, three Cleon clones exist, to guide one another and to groom the next era. There's the youngest Dawn, the middle ruler Day, and the eldest Dusk. Why did Foundation series creator David S. Goyer decide on this plot device?
“It's a perfect example of how we approached the adaptation,” Goyer said in a video conference press meet last week. “In the books, the Empire has existed on 10,000 worlds for over 10,000 years. They're powerful, they're resistant to change. They're rigid and so I tried to think about what's the vision? What's the theme? What is Asimov talking about? How do I embody that in a character? ‘One man cloning himself over and over again and imposing his ego upon an entire galaxy.' |
Oh well. |
At least I'm not feeling: "this is utter crap, I won't watch this". No book adaptation can be a perfect representation of the source material since books are dependent on the readers imagination while movies and tv series are all about condensing and transforming the source material into passive visual story telling which is completely different.
The best adaptation of such a rich, deep and massively impactful material is for me the Lord of the Rings trilogy. It's as good as it gets. Asimov's "Foundation" could and would never get the same careful treatment since his work isn't as widely popular and loved by the masses as Lord of the Rings. Asimovs universe, while having almost the same depth and scope as Tolkiens, require a little more of the reader and a taste for a more intellectual experience as well as being attracted to hard sci-fi being the stage and the background on which we're "watching" history (in the future) unfold with empires falling, humanity adapting (or in some cases failing to adapt or take the wrong route) as many millennia passes.
So yes, I enjoyed the first two episodes while having some mental twitching going on at things that didn't match up or when I thought some particular change from the source material was bad or didn't fit (imho). I'm eager for the next 8 episodes. Even though they had a huge budget that they spent on the visuals I doubt the various reviews, scores etc. will be particularly high. Asimov fans will probably on average give it a 6-7/10 while the average joe/jane will be all over the place. I'm no psycho historian so I can't predict anything really but my gut tells me that the average score when the show has reached it's conclusion will be around ~6/10 +-1.5
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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Posted: Sun, 26th Sep 2021 11:15 Post subject: |
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Przepraszam
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Posted: Sat, 2nd Oct 2021 09:38 Post subject: |
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Should I read the book?
Going from episode 2 > 3 makes no fucking sense what so ever.
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Posted: Sat, 2nd Oct 2021 11:11 Post subject: |
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Frant
King's Bounty
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Posted: Sun, 3rd Oct 2021 00:23 Post subject: |
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Episode 3 was indeed very... weird. It didn't reflect anything of what I remember from having read the book several times.
Spoiler: | The main character in this episode, Salvor Hardin, isn't even remotely resembling the Salvor Hardin in the books who was the Mayor on Terminus was a deviously clever manipulator and leader that used his skills in strategy and politics to avert any threats to Terminus and the Foundation. And the vault!? I don't see why someone decided to turn it into whatever that thing is with it's destructive null field and float above the ground like some alien artifact. In the books the vault was inside the Foundation building and it would open at specific times in front of a selected group of people... those of us who've read the books know what happens.
This show is very weird and I very seldom feel that it's "Foundation" .. it's like someone mixed up the scripts or didn't even read the books and just wrote the thing based on someones synopsis. Hari Seldon dying on the ship? Never happened, he died on Trantor, at his desk in his office with the Prime Radiant activated in his hand. It was shipped to Gaal Dornick who had emigrated to Terminus.
And R. Daneel Oliwav/Eto Demerzel is nothing like the individual described in the books.
This is a show that is clearly not even attempting to adapt what was actually written, esp. not when it comes to the characters and some main events (Hari Seldon's death etc.)
And yes, the jump from Episode 2 to 3 was seriously confusing. The timeline of events was completely lost.
Oh well, not much else to say really except that this is not even close to being a slightest faithful adaptation of Asimov's masterpiece. |
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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Frant
King's Bounty
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Posted: Sun, 3rd Oct 2021 00:32 Post subject: |
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Yondaime wrote: | Przepraszam wrote: | Should I read the book?
Going from episode 2 > 3 makes no fucking sense what so ever. |
The book series is amazing and really epic.
I would recommend reading them!
I first wrote here that you should read in the publication order... But I think the show is incorporating some Prequel stuff as well. So difficult to say.
I personally recommend the publication order. But I suppose the two prequels could be read first as well (they were released later on).
So yes, you should read them.
Here are the Foundation books:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_series#Asimov's_Foundation_series_novels
You could also read some of the other books he wrote that in some ways are loosely (same ways not so loosely) placed in the same universe:
I, Robot (1950)
Caves of Steel (1954)
The Naked Sun (1957)
The Robots of Dawn (1983)
Robots and Empire (1985)
The Currents of Space (1952)
The Stars, Like Dust (1951)
Pebble in the Sky (1950)
Note that because the books are written in the 1950/1960s, some of the dialogue and characters can feel a bit cringey for us... But the stories are genuinely great. |
You forgot about The End of Eternity which is the first/final book (difficult to explain without spoiling it) of all the ones interconnected with the Foundation series.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
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Posted: Sun, 3rd Oct 2021 23:00 Post subject: |
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The first episode was definitely promising, the second one was oddly incoherent but still acceptable, now with the third one it's almost like watching a lowbrow sci-fi soap opera. I'll give the show another couple of episodes, if things won't improve I'll have to let it go through Brother Cleon's micro powder machine.
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Posted: Mon, 4th Oct 2021 09:14 Post subject: |
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ixigia wrote: | The first episode was definitely promising, the second one was oddly incoherent but still acceptable, now with the third one it's almost like watching a lowbrow sci-fi soap opera. I'll give the show another couple of episodes, if things won't improve I'll have to let it go through Brother Cleon's micro powder machine. |
Agreed. I fear it will be like many things Apple i.e style over substance. Only this time will be unforgivable considering the source material.
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Horrordee
Soderator
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Location: England
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Posted: Mon, 4th Oct 2021 09:25 Post subject: |
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Woke space opera in 3..2..1..
Space for rent. Contact me for rates!
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Il_Padrino
Posts: 7464
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Posted: Mon, 4th Oct 2021 11:08 Post subject: |
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I've been really enjoying it so far.
1) Lenovo Legion 7 (AMD Ryzen 7 5800H, RTX 3080 16Gb, 32Gb DDR4, SSD 1TB +2TB
2) SFFPC (streaming via Moonlight+ Sunshine)
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Frant
King's Bounty
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Posted: Mon, 4th Oct 2021 11:09 Post subject: |
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The best thing about the show was Jared Harris. They should've started earlier in the timeline and spent at least two-three episodes on Hari Seldon coming to Trantor, working on his unfinished Psychohistory and the problems he faced. I guess this show will go down a lot better for people who've not read all the Foundation/Empire books.
I don't really mind if they change the gender of a few characters as long as it's not the most major characters in the books although I still find the "need" to do so rather annoying, esp. since Asimov already had strong female characters in his books so yes, the current gender "wokeness" is irritating. Changing Gaal Dornick and Demerzel was especially annoying since it's completely opposite of all the mental pictures my mind created (and his descriptions of them) while reading the books. Of course, completely erasing Asimovs original Dornick and rewriting the character from scratch was really annoying for me.
Spoiler for future episodes, you've been warned:
Spoiler: | From now on we'll just see some short appearances as he will appear in the recordings he made that were set to be shown to the Foundation people at specific times describing the crisis ahead of them that his psychohistory had predicted. |
Meanwhile my predictions have changed from my earlier post:
Quote: | Asimov fans will probably on average give it a 6-7/10 while the average joe/jane will be all over the place. I'm no psycho historian so I can't predict anything really but my gut tells me that the average score when the show has reached it's conclusion will be around ~6/10 +-1.5 |
Now (with ~+-1 uncertainty):
Asimov fans - ~4-5/10 average
Average joe/jane - ~5-7/10 average
Looking at IMDB user reviews (ignore the front page score), the first page, sorted by "most helpful" - the most upvoted user reviews, gives a good picture of the general consensus: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0804484/reviews?ref_=tttr_ql_op_3
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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Posted: Fri, 8th Oct 2021 06:55 Post subject: |
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LeoNatan
Banned
Posts: 73193
Location: Ramat Gan, Israel 🇮🇱
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Posted: Sat, 9th Oct 2021 00:30 Post subject: |
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Frant wrote: | The best thing about the show was Jared Harris. They should've started earlier in the timeline and spent at least two-three episodes on Hari Seldon coming to Trantor, working on his unfinished Psychohistory and the problems he faced. I guess this show will go down a lot better for people who've not read all the Foundation/Empire books.
I don't really mind if they change the gender of a few characters as long as it's not the most major characters in the books although I still find the "need" to do so rather annoying, esp. since Asimov already had strong female characters in his books so yes, the current gender "wokeness" is irritating. Changing Gaal Dornick and Demerzel was especially annoying since it's completely opposite of all the mental pictures my mind created (and his descriptions of them) while reading the books. Of course, completely erasing Asimovs original Dornick and rewriting the character from scratch was really annoying for me.
Spoiler for future episodes, you've been warned:
Spoiler: | From now on we'll just see some short appearances as he will appear in the recordings he made that were set to be shown to the Foundation people at specific times describing the crisis ahead of them that his psychohistory had predicted. |
Meanwhile my predictions have changed from my earlier post:
Quote: | Asimov fans will probably on average give it a 6-7/10 while the average joe/jane will be all over the place. I'm no psycho historian so I can't predict anything really but my gut tells me that the average score when the show has reached it's conclusion will be around ~6/10 +-1.5 |
Now (with ~+-1 uncertainty):
Asimov fans - ~4-5/10 average
Average joe/jane - ~5-7/10 average
Looking at IMDB user reviews (ignore the front page score), the first page, sorted by "most helpful" - the most upvoted user reviews, gives a good picture of the general consensus: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0804484/reviews?ref_=tttr_ql_op_3 |
Just saw that Retard S. Derper is the creator and writer for this show. Lost any interest in it. Not surprising at all it is going in the wrong direction. That hack kills anything he touches (or needs the Nolan brothers to come and rewrite his shit from scratch and still be respectful enough to put his name in the credits).
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Frant
King's Bounty
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Posted: Wed, 13th Oct 2021 01:59 Post subject: |
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After the last episode (4) it's simply not Foundation. I don't know what it is but it's not foundation. It's like going into the cinema to watch "Lord of the Rings" and feel completely dumbfounded when you see that it's a bio-drama about a male gymnast specializing in rings.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
"The sky was the color of a TV tuned to a dead station" - Neuromancer
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Posted: Wed, 13th Oct 2021 04:36 Post subject: |
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So far I appreciate The Expanse so much more, it delivered smaller story arcs over the initial seasons and slowly grew into the epic space opera, where now they can easily and cohesively tackle 15-20 characters and multiple stories at the same.
I havn't read these books but this series so far introduces something interesting, then just kills it off. Episode 4 and there's nothing interesting to keep me going, this show (and many sci-fi series) try to jump straight into epic space opera and i have no idea wtf is going on or care about any of the characters.
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Frant
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Posted: Fri, 15th Oct 2021 22:48 Post subject: |
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I find this so annoying to watch, and have no connection to the books, Asimov never really clicked for me.
But i hate shows where everyone always make the worst/dumbest choice at any juncture, i think i spent half of this episode groaning over stupid choices.
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ixigia
[Moderator] Consigliere
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Posted: Wed, 20th Oct 2021 00:56 Post subject: |
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Five episodes in, it's time for me to abandon ship. It's rather impressive how insipid the narrative "structure" can be when compared to the initial premises, the show desperately wants you to care about its characters but at the same time it provides zero incentive to do so. As a result, the emotional moments carry little weight and the action has practically no pathos, which the disconnected writing and the Ewok-like charisma of the protagonists can't mend. I'll read the books one day, though knowing my habits it's likely bound to remain just another empty plan :')
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Posted: Fri, 22nd Oct 2021 20:20 Post subject: |
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