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 Posted: Mon, 6th Jan 2014 23:38 Post subject: AMD presents FreeSync [G-sync with no license!] |
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http://www.anandtech.com/show/7641/amd-demonstrates-freesync-free-gsync-alternative-at-ces-2014
| Quote: | Using two Toshiba Satellite Click notebooks purchased at retail, without any hardware modifications, AMD demonstrated variable refresh rate technology. According to AMD, there’s been a push to bring variable refresh rate display panels to mobile for a while now in hopes of reducing power consumption (refreshing a display before new content is available wastes power, sort of the same reason we have panel self refresh displays). There’s apparently already a VESA standard for controlling VBLANK intervals. The GPU’s display engine needs to support it, as do the panel and display hardware itself. If all of the components support this spec however, then you can get what appears to be the equivalent of G-Sync without any extra hardware.
In the case of the Toshiba Satellite Click, the panel already supports variable VBLANK. AMD’s display engines have supported variable VBLANK for a couple of generations, and that extends all the way down to APUs. The Satellite Click in question uses AMD’s low cost Kabini APU, which already has the requisite hardware to support variable VBLANK and thus variable display refresh rates (Kaveri as well as AMD's latest GPUs should support it as well). AMD simply needed driver support for controlling VBLANK timing, which is present in the latest Catalyst drivers. AMD hasn’t yet exposed any of the controls to end users, but all of the pieces in this demo are ready and already available.
The next step was to write a little demo app that could show it working. In the video below both systems have V-Sync enabled, but the machine on the right is taking advantage of variable VBLANK intervals. Just like I did in our G-Sync review, I took a 720p60 video of both screens and slowed it down to make it easier to see the stuttering you get with V-Sync On when your content has a variable frame rate. AMD doesn’t want to charge for this technology since it’s already a part of a spec that it has implemented (and shouldn’t require a hardware change to those panels that support the spec), hence the current working name “FreeSync”. |
Shit just got real moment:
| Quote: | | If variable VBLANK control is indeed integrated into all modern AMD GPUs, that means the Xbox One and PS4 should also have support for this. |
Does it work just as good as nvidia's G-sync? Unclear.
| Quote: | | AMD’s demo isn’t quite as nice as NVIDIA’s swinging pendulum, and we obviously weren’t able to test anywhere near as many scenarios, but this one is a good starting point. |
And the "bad" news:
| Quote: | | AMD isn’t ready to productize this nor does it have a public go to market strategy, but my guess is we’ll see more panel vendors encouraged to include support for variable VBLANK and perhaps an eventual AMD driver update that enables control over this function. |
Hurry the fuck up AMD 
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
~ WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO SAY CAN ONLY BE SEEN ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHTUOgYNRzY
Last edited by consolitis on Mon, 6th Jan 2014 23:40; edited 3 times in total
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garus
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| Posted: Mon, 6th Jan 2014 23:39 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:52; edited 1 time in total
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Werelds
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 00:14 Post subject: |
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Time to send an inquiry :>
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 00:28 Post subject: |
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If only AMD could do with their CPUs what they do with the cards
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Werelds
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 00:37 Post subject: |
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Well, I've sent off an email to Eizo to see what they think 
Edit: looked at the DP spec and that actually is all there is to it I think. I need to review this in greater detail, but it never states VBLANK intervals should be constant as it does for the older standards. In fact, DP's framing symbols explicitly declare start and end of VBLANK, with VB-ID declaring redraw. Why the fuck is that not used yet? I'm guessing the average LCD controller doesn't like that, but that means it's a firmware thing. Nvidia just did the smart thing and marketed it with a "special" controller.
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couleur
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 08:24 Post subject: |
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| SpykeZ wrote: | | If only AMD could do with their CPUs what they do with the cards |
That would be so  |
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Werelds
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 10:08 Post subject: |
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This is now a top priority within Eizo 
They've already played with G-Sync, but want to avoid it for several reasons. Hopefully I can coax some more information out of them 
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JBeckman
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 11:38 Post subject: |
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Werelds
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 11:45 Post subject: |
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Oh I know why they want to avoid G-Sync, I meant more information about FreeSync once they've done their research and poked AMD
Issue with G-Sync is that you don't license nor support it. You take their PCB and that's that. For companies like Eizo/Dell/LG (or even, dare I say it, Samsung), who know what they're doing, that's a big no-no. They lose all their processing and have to deal with whatever Nvidia gives them. That's why the 6 manufacturers announced are all generic monitor manufacturers who only really assemble. They don't lose anything.
That's aside from the RIDICULOUS price Nvidia ask for the damn thing (let's just say that ASUS' G-Sync premium does not cover Nvidia's asking price).
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 12:29 Post subject: |
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go amd !
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 14:10 Post subject: |
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| chiv wrote: | | don't quote me on that |
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 16:51 Post subject: |
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An article with some interesting bits of info about G-Sync and "FreeSync":
http://techreport.com/news/25867/amd-could-counter-nvidia-g-sync-with-simpler-free-sync-tech
On adoption of the tech:
| Quote: | The lack of adoption is evidently due to a lack of momentum or demand for the feature, which was originally pitched as a power-saving measure. Adding support in a monitor should be essentially "free" and perhaps possible via a firmware update. The only challenge is that each display must know how long its panel can sustain the proper color intensity before it begins to fade. The vblank interval can't be extended beyond this limit without affecting color fidelity.
AMD believes the primary constraint in making this capability widespread is still monitor support. Although adding dynamic refresh to a monitor may cost next to nothing, monitor makers have shown they won't bother unless they believe there's some obvious demand for that feature. |
Some theories on G-Sync:
| Quote: | In AMD's assessment, it's possible to achieve a G-Sync-like animation smoothness with a combination of two techniques: dynamic refresh rates and triple buffering. The exec initially expressed puzzlement over why Nvidia chose to implement them in expensive, external hardware. After all, triple-buffering can be implemented by a game developer in software or even enabled via a software switch in a graphics driver control panel. He said AMD used to have an option to force the use of triple buffering in its driver control panel, in fact, and would be willing to consider bringing it back.
The exec's puzzlement over Nvidia's use of external hardware was resolved when I spoke with him again later in the day. His new theory is that the display controller in Nvidia's current GPUs simply can't support variable refresh intervals, hence the need for an external G-Sync unit. |
AMD apparently had support for dynamic refresh rate in their GPUs for three generations...
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 17:14 Post subject: |
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if it was only available as some adapter box thingy connected on dvi before your monitor. nobody is going to change monitors just for this
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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Werelds
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 17:25 Post subject: |
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| KillerCrocker wrote: | | if it was only available as some adapter box thingy connected on dvi before your monitor. nobody is going to change monitors just for this |
Except that part of this has to happen inside the monitor. A firmware upgrade is enough, but a box outside the monitor is just not technically feasible. |
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 17:31 Post subject: |
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why not?
All that needs to happen is to force monitor to have dynamic refresh rate according to fps, so they just have to communicate.
Guess we will see whats up with all of this later this year
3080 | ps5 pro
Sin317-"im 31 years old and still surprised at how much shit comes out of my ass actually ..."
SteamDRM-"Call of Duty is the symbol of the true perfection in every aspect. Call of Duty games are like Mozart's/Beethoven's symphonies"
deadpoetic-"are you new to the cyberspace?"
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Werelds
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 19:22 Post subject: |
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| KillerCrocker wrote: | why not?
All that needs to happen is to force monitor to have dynamic refresh rate according to fps, so they just have to communicate.
Guess we will see whats up with all of this later this year |
And how would "they" "just" "communicate" if there's nothing INSIDE the monitor? 
That's aside from the fact that for this to work, the GPU is in control of when a frame goes out, the opposite of how DVI/HDMI works. With DVI/HDMI your GPU does not know when the monitor will refresh technically speaking. When the monitor is at the start of a VBLANK period, it starts pulling whatever is in the GPU's framebuffer out of there; which is where tearing may occur, if the GPU updates the framebuffer while the monitor is pulling the data out. The frame isn't sent to the monitor. And all of this happens on a fixed timer, which the spec does not allow to "just" change on the fly.
And that's also why even the PS4 and XBO still won't support this. The DVI and HDMI specs don't allow for variable timing. That's why G-Sync requires DP. AMD's solution will require DP too.
HDMI 3.0 is the earliest point at which anything other than DP may be able to do this. |
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JBeckman
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JBeckman
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Werelds
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 19:35 Post subject: |
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Yeah HDMI 2.0 was finalised back in October and there are some products about to come out, but it doesn't include variable VBLANK periods (or variable refresh rate as some'll call it, which isn't accurate)
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JBeckman
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Werelds
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 19:55 Post subject: |
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Quickly checked, it was September
And yeah, the consoles only use HDMI. They do use HDCP, but that's available on DP too. It's the popularity of HDMI that made them swing in that direction obviously.
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 20:10 Post subject: |
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No HDTVs with DP inputs, or any other living room media devices really, so no point in having one on consoles.
If those Whaterver-Syncs actually make a difference, I can see Sony, for example, adding the input on their next TVs - could make for a good selling point. On the console side of things, I suppose you could add one on the inevitable refresh. I assume there is no way to use an active adapter until then, with HDMI not being able to output the necessary additional information?
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ixigia
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| Posted: Tue, 7th Jan 2014 21:51 Post subject: |
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I probably won't be using this as I'm a neanderthal man with no standards, but anything which is free from silly constraints, brand exclusivity and extra hardware gets a fat fuck yea from me
Hope AMD manage to pull this off soon(ish).
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Werelds
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2014 11:55 Post subject: |
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So a few more details have emerged after PC Perspective's Ryan Shrout (of course ) spoke with AMD.
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/AMD-Variable-Refresh-FreeSync-Could-Be-Alternative-NVIDIA-G-Sync
Basically what AMD used is eDP (Embedded DisplayPort), which is used in some laptops to hook up the display to the GPU internally. Now, sadly, that is not actually part of DisplayPort 1.2 (which is what monitors use now). eDP and DP are separate standards.
However, that does not mean a current monitor's controller isn't capable of doing it, especially on recent monitors, as it will all be part of DP 1.3.
All in all, it basically does mean that Nvidia's G-Sync module is a giant waste of money really. I'm sure it won't go away, as they've invested in the marketing and got some companies on board already, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see Dell, Eizo, Samsung and LG come out with DP 1.3 monitors right after the standard has been finalised. Those four have used DP in all their high-end (and in some cases even mid-end) models, unlike the 6 manufacturers Nvidia has on board. Those have still been stuck on DVI and HDMI. Like I said though, they are also the ones who already used "standard" display controllers, unlike the other ones, who've got their own proprietary controllers to handle all the extra processing they do. They would've needed to get the controller from somewhere else anyhow.
Now here's where I see an issue: a split between G-Sync and standard DP 1.3 variable refresh rates. If those 6 stick with Nvidia, their DP implementation will be controlled by Nvidia. To clarify this: the G-Sync PCB is an entire display controller, intended to replace what's there - that means image quality, refresh mechanics, timings will be identical for any monitor that has it. And Nvidia was late with adopting DP. And they were late with adopting HDMI 1.4. That does not bode well for us.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2014 13:10 Post subject: |
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| Werelds wrote: | | Now here's where I see an issue: a split between G-Sync and standard DP 1.3 variable refresh rates. If those 6 stick with Nvidia, their DP implementation will be controlled by Nvidia. To clarify this: the G-Sync PCB is an entire display controller, intended to replace what's there - that means image quality, refresh mechanics, timings will be identical for any monitor that has it. And Nvidia was late with adopting DP. And they were late with adopting HDMI 1.4. That does not bode well for us. |
Well, shit. I really like my nvidia GPUs, but I also really like my Dell monitor.
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Werelds
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2014 13:14 Post subject: |
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I reckon the chance of Dell adopting G-Sync is very slim, exactly for the reasons I laid out above. Them adopting DP 1.3 though? CEBIT'll probably have DP 1.3 products already. They were the first with 1.2 too.
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| Posted: Wed, 8th Jan 2014 14:08 Post subject: |
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Yeah, I got all of that. Here is hoping to everyone embracing an open standard, but knowing Nvidia with their proprietary CUDA and PhysX, chances are very slim.
It's cool to have a knowledgeable member like you around though, I really appreciate your view on all of this.
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