No, the green parties are going down. People fear a green dictatorship and the populist right has made green their favorite punching ball. Despite climate change and war being the biggest threat imaginable for our western lifestyle, people fear green policies to attenuate and prepare for the consequences of climate change will impact them more than climate change itself. Also everytime a green party is in government, they never deliver upon their promises due to the obvious compromise they have to make. But thats apparently to difficult to grasp for many. The only things they actually manage is the woke shit, since those things are more or less easy to pass but have little to no impact on our lives, except being annoying.
No the greens are under heavy fire. Their time is over. People are fed up of hearing doom. Instead we are now headed into more conservative authoritarian times, while we fight to preserve as many resources as we can. Everyone for themselves makes everyone believe they will somehow win. An absurdity of course, but it helps a few rich guys.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
No, the green parties are going down. People fear a green dictatorship and the populist right has made green their favorite punching ball. Despite climate change and war being the biggest threat imaginable for our western lifestyle, people fear green policies to attenuate and prepare for the consequences of climate change will impact them more than climate change itself. Also everytime a green party is in government, they never deliver upon their promises due to the obvious compromise they have to make. But thats apparently to difficult to grasp for many. The only things they actually manage is the woke shit, since those things are more or less easy to pass but have little to no impact on our lives, except being annoying.
No the greens are under heavy fire. Their time is over. People are fed up of hearing doom. Instead we are now headed into more conservative authoritarian times, while we fight to preserve as many resources as we can. Everyone for themselves makes everyone believe they will somehow win. An absurdity of course, but it helps a few rich guys.
You don't have a clue about european politics, you can't even imagine how "progressive" main stream politics have become. You would love it here .
Seriously people aren't against measures to prevent cilmate change, they fear not being be able to pay the bills or to afford a house.
Simply saying, you don’t have a clue is not a very convincing argument though.
Here is my retort: No u.
edit2: Europe is at its most progressive now, true. But the pinnacle is reached, just as it is for the green parties. Now look at the political trends.
And btw. I live pretty much in the center of Europe. Luxembourg. I don’t feel threatened by progressiveness at all.
friketje wrote:
Seriously people aren't against measures to prevent cilmate change, they fear not being be able to pay the bills or to afford a house.
Now if you just add a few more thoughts, boil it, distill the essence, it leads to exactly what I said.
Feel free to open a new topic and debate me about it. I’m sure we will find a consensus.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
And btw. I live pretty much in the center of Europe. Luxembourg. I don’t feel threatened by progressiveness at all.
Not only are Americans on here accused of being ignorant of how Europe really works. Now Europeans are being accused of being ignorant of how Europe really works.
Wanna come join the glue eaters corner couleur? We got room
Economy and migration, those are the main topics in Europe now. Considering the green parties have a big part in both; in particular the closing of nuclear power plants while replacing them with gas and even coal plants. That really made people open their eyes, I think.
And migration too, because apparently, islam is a perfect progressive ideology according to green parties. Hence their name, probably.
The new government in the Netherlands isn't an accident. People have been voting right wing for 2 decades now, while politics kept saying the voters where wrong. It's come to a point now that the political class has to listen, or face uprisings.
There must have been a door there in the wall, when I came in.
Truly gone fishing.
The power plant issues stem from compromises and concessions that inevitably have to be made. The discussions in Germany have been a lot about a law about heating systems. The immigration issues are with all center parties equally not just the greens, because every neolib growth oriented policy knows, we need immigrants to keep going in this system. But the greens get the most heat, obviously. The right-wings punching ball. Islam welcoming has been done by every center party, because of universalist humanist values and the idea that the market will just do it. Doesn’t work. And the greens get mist bashed for it by the populist right. Obviously.
Il_Padrino wrote:
The new government in the Netherlands isn't an accident. People have been voting right wing for 2 decades now, while politics kept saying the voters where wrong. It's come to a point now that the political class has to listen, or face uprisings.
This just proves my point though. But people will have a hard awakening when they realize that their right-wing parties will not fix anything except maybe sending some immigrants home, because besides the immigrant issues those parties are neither better at economics, social nets, environment and all the other real issues that impact people’s lives. But they are very good at making people believe they are never to blame.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
Last edited by couleur on Mon, 20th May 2024 11:21; edited 1 time in total
Not only are Americans on here accused of being ignorant of how Europe really works. Now Europeans are being accused of being ignorant of how Europe really works.
Of course. The average European hasn't been formally educated on the subject of "how Europe works" (be that historically, politically, economically, geographically.. etc etc).
The average european “who now gets it” gets their political education from memes and tiktok videos nowadays. It seems to work out for the populists apparently. Sexuality of other people and anti-wokeness have become major talking points for all these parties, from Putin to Orban etc. Its the new moral purity that all these authoritarian lightbringers fight for and that will keep the kleptocracy rolling into a new age of truth.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
And btw. I live pretty much in the center of Europe. Luxembourg. I don’t feel threatened by progressiveness at all.
Not only are Americans on here accused of being ignorant of how Europe really works. Now Europeans are being accused of being ignorant of how Europe really works.
Wanna come join the glue eaters corner couleur? We got room
Glue doesn't so bad compared to the overall political mood in Europe.
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Its new in the sense that it became a focus in these last 10 years. It functions as an anti degenerate west motion, working for any authoritarian pov, Russia, China, Islamism, Nationalism etc. They share the narrative that the west is degenerate in its sexuality.
And you’re right that this has been done before. You have similar narratives end of 19th beginning of the 20th century, even in combination with the same narratives against globalist elites and the simple man being the bearer of truth.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
Regarding right wing populists focusing on sex and gender, it’s a direct [over]reaction to what the left is pushing. We reached some equilibrium in the 90s and early 2000s, but then in the last 5-10 years, the retarded far left, mostly in the US, started pushing gender and identity, and now populists are just grifting because it’s successful. If it works for utub retards, why wouldn’t it work for populist politicians? The difference this time is that things are moving too strange over too short period and more people are tending to revolt, rather than accept, unlike women rights and gay rights of yesteryear. Also, it’s quite easy to convince someone that women should have equal rights, gays should be able to have sex wherever they want and be able to adopt. It’s quite the opposite about ovulating “men", trans “women” participating in women sports, xoom/xerox “pronounce” police and so on. The far left has brought this on themselves, and europee, along with the rest of the world, is in for a rude authoritarian right-wing populist awakening. What could possibly go wrong? “They”/“them” “it’s maaaam"
people are tending to revolt, rather than accept, unlike women rights and gay rights of yesteryear.
Do we live in parallel universe from each other?
Because both those went so smoothly...
No political parties at each others throats over it, or revolts, uprisers, marches in the streets both for and against, or a decade of active dissonance and resistance after either of them happened at all?
Nope dont remember any parallels of anger, spite, rejection and outrage to other rights movements at all. It was a purely smooth process of everyone quietly accepted it.
And the suffrage movements around the world was purely for the sake of wahmen getting together to chat.
Not sure what history timeline you have as yours, but it wasn't anything like that in mine.
LeoNatan wrote:
Also, it’s quite easy to convince someone that women should have equal rights, gays should be able to have sex wherever they want and be able to adopt
Is it, really? Then why are we constantly fighting and have to doing that still after all this time, to convince some people of both those?
It's too easy for moral discourse to become weaponized, especially in the domain of politics and theology, but I don't think morality should be relegated to philosophy either. I tend to think moral enquiry Is valid, but tricky at a societal level. In some sense we are all the simple man bearing our own truth.
Philosophy helps to lay bare the various ideological groundworks that you find in various narratives. And individuals tend to appropriate those depending on their peer group. (Including myself) But philosophy should, by no means, serve as a moral guide. For one, there is no "one" philosophy.
Personally, I have come to appreciate a more universalist approach to morals, simply because it helps overcome the, imo, absurd and arbitrary identity focused morals.
LeoNatan wrote:
Is this just about europeeon politics only?
🥱😴
Anything political goes.
LeoNatan wrote:
Regarding right wing populists focusing on sex and gender, it’s a direct [over]reaction to what the left is pushing. We reached some equilibrium in the 90s and early 2000s, but then in the last 5-10 years, the retarded far left, mostly in the US, started pushing gender and identity, and now populists are just grifting because it’s successful. If it works for utub retards, why wouldn’t it work for populist politicians? The difference this time is that things are moving too strange over too short period and more people are tending to revolt, rather than accept, unlike women rights and gay rights of yesteryear. Also, it’s quite easy to convince someone that women should have equal rights, gays should be able to have sex wherever they want and be able to adopt. It’s quite the opposite about ovulating “men", trans “women” participating in women sports, xoom/xerox “pronounce” police and so on. The far left has brought this on themselves, and europee, along with the rest of the world, is in for a rude authoritarian right-wing populist awakening. What could possibly go wrong? “They”/“them” “it’s maaaam"
I largely agree. What I don't agree with is that homosexual and women's rights was an easy fight and that its now a given. Yes, in some parts of society. But I can already hear the reaction coming. Last but not least in social media, but also in american politics.
I'm not going to go too deep into the trans subject ( ), because for one, it doesn't affect me irl. And secondly, I think it's way blown out of proportion, both by some screeching on both sides of the "debate" and by bots. But theres is something else here that is true too:
What you call the left has effectively been taken over by this woke shit. But woke is not really a left-wing ideology in the sense that the fight for social justice means to overcome social differences and treat humans equally because they are human and not because they are trans, gay, colored, women, ethnic minority etc.
So the first problem with the woke ideology, (if we're going to call it that), is that it focuses on differences between humans and essentializes these differences. This becomes obvious for example when they say people of a certain group can never talk about what it means to be of another group, because they are different by essence. This makes woke become the same as racist ideologies, in that they essentialize superficial traits and create essential hierarchies. So it is deeply anti-humanist.
The second problem with woke is that it employs victimization and divides the world by victims and aggressors. Some groups are always victims and some are always aggressors. Basically this rejoins the first problem, but it also creates a dynamic by which everyone wants to be a victim somehow. Funnily, the reaction to woke plays by the same rules (the populist right are always victims). This also doesn't really help a positive change for the future.
The third problem with woke is the focus on language and symbolism over material needs. I don't want to go too deep into the philosophical implications of language and its relation to the world. Lets just say that woke starts with some good premises, but then adds false assumptions to bolster their narrative of victimization and minorities. Through focus on language and victimization they even want to rewrite history books, old texts and decontextualize everything to the point of the absurd. According to woke, there is no more history. Everything must be analyzed through their lens and then be either rewritten or discarded. And this is a disaster, both for language itself and for the real world problems that many people face, which leads to the fourth issue.
The last thing that is apparent with woke is that it's not really a socialist or by any means Marxist ideology. I know that a lot of right-wingers say that. But that's just because they have no other recognizable terms. I blame Americanization. This is apparent when you look who promotes this. They are rich guys, Hollywood, some huge corporations but also the left-turned-neoliberal parties and some center parties. These are not those people who need social justice. These are rich or middle-class people, who live and thrive neatly in the capitalist system.
"But but, what about the socially and economically worse off minorities (like black people in the states). Don't they care about those?" No they don't. They care about virtue-signalling about those minorities. They like to say they care about those. Because talk is cheap, and producing a Hollywood movie with minorities as leaders is cheaper than actually changing the system for everyone to profit. And similarly for the left-wing political parties, changing pronouns is cheaper than actually creating a system where jobs pay for a living.
The neolibs love woke, because it keeps the idiots occupied, while their system keeps running.
And after I said all this. I will also say that the new, let's call them alt-right parties, are even worse. Because they also just create more division and hate, and they do it by discrediting both the media and science, without proposing a working alternative. It's essentially a form of nihilism that drives people into more extreme forms of social constructs, conspiracies, sects etc. Once you recognize the alt-right playbook, you see it with every of their politicians. Their reactions, their manners, their way of negating debate, negating discourse. It is intellectually even more disgusting than woke, though not much more. But I have no more energy to write.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
if the peasants are busy shouting about genitals & ethnicities they won't notice the trickle down pissonomics. That there are only two races: the owner race & the working race and they both come in all colors.
I do miss the 90's & early 2000's, they clearly had their big problems with wars & terrorism but there was a shared common sense. It seems to me the smartphone boom just psyop'd everyone into their own bubble of hyperindividuality to the absurd levels we are seeing today of people so far out of touch with reality it's only fuelling the fires of division everywhere.
@couleur When I mentioned women and gay rights, I was thinking more about europee, rather than the US, who has always been more prudish and puritan. Yes, you always had the sideline shitholes in EU, but in general, things just naturally progressed. Even in the US, when the supreme court set the law of the land in Obergefell, it was mostly accepted because it was followed by decades of cultural acceptance. Yes, you had the imbecile rightard religious feigning outrage (while fucking male prostitutes in their vehicles in the church parking log), but those didn’t really change the discourse of US politics much. Today, even abortion, despite Roe overturn, is a toxic issue for republitards, and they ponder how best to hold this hot potato without getting burned. Nobody has been successful. So the difference from my eyes is that militant culture push from a few dum/dum blue haired weirdos won’t go well, because just like anything in this generation, they lack self control and patience, and have to push any topic to the extreme. And that’s not a successful strategy to bring meaningful or otherwise change.
With europee, the biggest issue has been muslam integration turning cities like Paris and London, historically, but also Brussels, Amsterdam, Oslo and even Sofia, etc. Unable and unwilling to crack down on shitshow culture and crime, leading to whole neighborhoods of muslam sharia-esque crime-infested cancers of society. In the name of misguided over-virtuous multiculturalism, everyone shining a light on this problem is branded as MuSLaMoPhObiC, of course. There is a direct correlation between muslam crime rise and right-wing populist parties gaining more and more traction. Some are more sophisticated than others, but the direction is very clear. Some tardobot, in unseen fit of rage, will likely argue that there is zero problem, it’s all muslamophobia, 2 billlian muslamos, everyone is racist, there is no right wing rise, and everything is perfect and Léo is just racsim olol, but we all know everything is true. To what extent is it true? As usual, grifters gonna grift, everything is blown out of proportion for the sake of populism, but the general direction of where things are going is clear. I’ve been observing this here on this forum for at least 15 years at this point.
On the other hand, in the US, I don’t think muslam immigration plays any role there, although we do see from recent college protests, that the issue is brewing there too. In the US, local liberal politics are failing miserably and people are getting fed up. You have people being punched live on TikTok while walking in big, “blue” cities, while their mayors and attorneys general are looking to decriminalize shoplifting (because "poor, oppressed negroes") and defund the police. Are republitard “just cut taxes” better at local government? No, but since big cities have been “blue” for decades, people don’t know different.
while their mayors and attorneys general are looking to decriminalize shoplifting (because "poor, oppressed negroes").
While a lot of the rest of you post was personalize opinions paraded around like facts'..this one baffles me you believe it, to this clearly outrageously false degree..
I have NO idea what news networks or circles you get this from. I have an idea..but I wouldnt call them 'news' circles. You need better ones. Jesus Christ...you bought this dumb ass agenda narrative bullshit? 30 seconds of google proves its all made up shit.
- No ones decriminalized it, nor wanted to make stealing legal (I cant believe I have to explain that). Prop 47 in no way decriminalizes it. It's STILL a misdemeanor of the same class and charges as it was. It jsut adjusted for the times as the bill min-max money value for the degree of charge was not updated in 60 years.
- No one has said or implied it was decriminalized for that reason (poor negros??? WTF?) how did that reason even start to be believed??? Other than maybe ignorant racist extrapolation of "I bet this is why!". Because NOTHING in prop 47 even remotely implies thats why, or anyone said vaguely it was that. Someone made that shit up and people believed it.
- It was, is, and still will be a crime. Under Prop 47, theft of less than $950 under all of those scenarios is still a crime. It’s still punishable with fines and up to six months in jail. In fact, 34 states have a higher misdemeanor/felony shoplifting threshold than California.
Texas...TEXAS, is more lenient on what is felony shoplifting at over $2500 (vs Cali $950) SO 'leftist blue...blah blah" is bullshit as the reason for the change..you know what was the reason? GO read on it, because obviously you haven't. I'm not going to tell you, reading up on it will tell you more than I can. And you cant claim its me lying on why I told you it was...
Go read the actual bill, and minutes of the meetings, and stop willingly being spoon feed made up news, because you like the tastes of it. Someone dangled carrots of made up outrage at 'liberals', and you bit on them like a snapping turtle.
@LeoNatan In Germany and eastern europe, the least impacted by immigration are the most fearful and most likely to vote the kleptocracy or the nationalists. Immigration issues also vastly differ from EU country to EU country. Imo, while muslim integration is in some places a very serious issue (sharia law britains) it is not an issue in many others. This explanation fir the rise of nationalism and authoritarianism is too short-sighted and plays into their cards.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
In Oslo at least its on the rise. Its not out of control, but mass media certainly downplays issues and "forget" to mention situations that occur there. Government and media gaslights the population much like rest of Eucuck countries do.
@LeoNatan In Germany and eastern europe, the least impacted by immigration are the most fearful and most likely to vote the kleptocracy or the nationalists. Immigration issues also vastly differ from EU country to EU country. Imo, while muslim integration is in some places a very serious issue (sharia law britains) it is not an issue in many others. This explanation for the rise of nationalism and authoritarianism is too short-sighted and plays into their cards.
The point is not if the issue is real or not, but the perception of it, and the perception of government and media trying to downplay it to obscurity and/or blame mUsLaMoPhObiA for every unfavorable statistic, of which there are many.
“The media” doesn’t exist. At least not here. There are still many different povs. Most of them consider everyone to be their potential reader/customer. But there is a general code of conduct when you’re addressing a public audience to which moderate muslims and all sorts of immigrants also are a part of. Like the turkish population in Germany. Would it be useful in Luxembourg, to say that most stabbings are amongst portuguese immigrants in the south? What purpose would it serve? Apart from essentalizing negative traits to portuguese immigrants. My portuguese colleagues would be very pleased I suppose. It would probably be better to address education, social services and unemployment. Harder family life, more agressions between spouses, drinking problems etc. etc. Show these figures and relate them to crime. Populist politics and media always try to convince people that ethnic traits lead to crime and so play the bad immigrants vs the good resident cards. And while there are issues with too much immigration, the government does not want or need to stoke the flames for the simple reason that many families are a part of the voting population, work, pay taxes, go to schools etc. and are part of the public life. The government speaks for all people and it pays attention not to create more division. Its rather normal.
It doesn’t mean that the last decades of immigration were perfect. The contrary is true. France and UK failed miserably. And the massive influx of asylum seekers is an issue too.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
@LeoNatan In Germany and eastern europe, the least impacted by immigration are the most fearful and most likely to vote the kleptocracy or the nationalists. Immigration issues also vastly differ from EU country to EU country. Imo, while muslim integration is in some places a very serious issue (sharia law britains) it is not an issue in many others. This explanation fir the rise of nationalism and authoritarianism is too short-sighted and plays into their cards.
Isnt that part of the problem in politics thought? Hyperbole of situation used too often?
Despite it being different from place to place, locational problems are conveyed as expanded to seem larger and more widespread than they are, to make them seem bigger than they are.
Like the border issue here, Republicans saying its a national emergency and is impacting everyone directly. And people going with that. When asked, nearly everyone says/cannot give an example of how it impacts them. Its a border state issue inflated to 'harder to tangibly grasp, more scary' national level.
Or the thing Leo keeps mocking about "2 billion blah blah' thing. A locale of Muslims from the middle east, is expanded to all of them, everywhere, is the dangerous violent type. A local problem, expanded worldwide to seem more imminent danger to all.
Saying Britain and a couple countries have varying degrees of a Muslim immigrant situation, doesnt sound as impactful as saying "Europe has one", that sounds way more pervasive, important, and imminent. When you point out it isnt everywhere, someone will eventually use the: 'Maybe...but you are next!' future prediction to imply 'if not now, soon'.
Saying Britain and a couple countries have varying degrees of a Muslim immigrant situation, doesnt sound as impactful as saying "Europe has one", that sounds way more pervasive, important, and imminent. When you point out it isnt everywhere, someone will eventually use the: 'Maybe...but you are next!' future prediction to imply 'if not now, soon'.
Emotion > Rationality. All the time.
Nuance is not sexy.
When you can strike with a strong and simple judgement, you feel empowered and right, and people will approve of what you say. When you search for nuance, you feel insecure and weak, because you see that coming closer to reality is tedious and doesn't always support your bias. So it's easier to use strong black/white judgements than it is to look closely. I do the same, when I judge Trump supporters. I see a red hat and I judge.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
Damn hugely organized right wing forces trying to over throw the german government to establish their own "Reich" has been relegated to "general chatter" rather than world news
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), because for one, it doesn't affect me irl. And secondly, I think it's way blown out of proportion, both by some screeching on both sides of the "debate" and by bots. But theres is something else here that is true too:
