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 Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 00:20 Post subject: WW 2 air combat |
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I just saw the Red Tails movie... left me with a bitter propaganda bullshit taste shoved down my throat. I know the Tuskegee pilots did a great job, i have all the respect for them and their combat record.
However, looking at a statistic between Axis fighter pilots and Allied fighter pilots :
Erich Hartmann : 352 confirmed air kills and all the way down to Hermann Schleinhege (97 kills) are taken by Luftwaffe pilots. The first Allied pilot to appear is Ivan Kozhedub with 62 kills. The first US pilot to appear is Richard I. Bong, with 40 kills.
Why the hell they are not making a movie/documentary about the great skill and heroism of Luftwaffe pilots ? I know history is written by the victors but still...as a flight sim / air combat freak, i would love to see something like this.
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
Location: White Shaft
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 00:33 Post subject: |
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Eh, because they were the invading force and also lost? Nobody likes a loser.
But yes Red Tails was indeed awful. Not really propaganda filled, just really really bad as a movie.
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MAD_MAX333
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 00:40 Post subject: |
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Cause you don't wanna admit that they were the better army in all aspects.. Just had bad management and orders in some critical junctures of the war.
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zmed
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 00:42 Post subject: |
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They were playing America the Beautiful at the end. The most uncomfortably cheesy propaganda scene ever put on film. I liked the dogfights, however incredibad the physics were, but the racism was downplayed and kept in factual errors about their war records regarding lost bombers that were shown inaccurate for a while now. Red Tails is a certifiably bad and preachy movie, that not even the awshumbutten-esque dogfights can save from being bad.
OT: history is written by the victors. The only movies you'll see that feature German soldiers in leading roles are the ones where they are either opposing the Reich or are in a docu-drama (Valkerie, The Conspiracy, The Fall, etc).
Last edited by zmed on Sun, 13th May 2012 00:54; edited 1 time in total
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tonizito
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 00:45 Post subject: |
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| MAD_MAX333 wrote: | | Cause you don't wanna admit that they were the better army in all aspects.. Just had bad management and orders in some critical junctures of the war. |
Yeah, especially on pretty much anything that was airborn.
| boundle (thoughts on cracking AITD) wrote: | | i guess thouth if without a legit key the installation was rolling back we are all fucking then |
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 00:55 Post subject: Re: WW 2 air combat |
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| BloodySpy wrote: | I just saw the Red Tails movie... left me with a bitter propaganda bullshit taste shoved down my throat. I know the Tuskegee pilots did a great job, i have all the respect for them and their combat record.
However, looking at a statistic between Axis fighter pilots and Allied fighter pilots :
Erich Hartmann : 352 confirmed air kills and all the way down to Hermann Schleinhege (97 kills) are taken by Luftwaffe pilots. The first Allied pilot to appear is Ivan Kozhedub with 62 kills. The first US pilot to appear is Richard I. Bong, with 40 kills.
Why the hell they are not making a movie/documentary about the great skill and heroism of Luftwaffe pilots ? I know history is written by the victors but still...as a flight sim / air combat freak, i would love to see something like this. |
Because of the simple fact that Germany was being bombed basically 24/7. During the day by the USAAF, and during the night by the RAF. The losses on the Allied side of bomber crews were.. horrible. It wasn't until the last year and a half of the war when the P-51 was introduced that the bomber runs had sufficient fighter cover. It was basically a shooting gallery for the Luftwaffe before the P-51 arrived.
The documentary would consist of a guy shooting a bunch of slower moving almost defenseless aircraft moving together in enormous packs like schools of fish trying not to get shot down. Even worse is on the Eastern front where the Soviet's were so technologically behind in aircraft. It was a shooting gallery for the Luftwaffe on both fronts until the last couple years of the war.
And yes, red tails is a shit film. The flight physics ruined it for me. The P-51 itself rules with speed and rate of climb. Not manuverability. Yet they were tossing them around like jets.
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zipfero
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zmed
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Doh!
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 04:15 Post subject: |
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mtj
Posts: 2315
Location: Austria / Finland
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 10:25 Post subject: |
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Finnish pilots were good too, the highest 'scoring' outsize nazis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_aces_from_Finland
While Finland was part of Axis originally, they also had to kick Germany out of Finland, and didn't really take part in the offensive warfare of Nazis (I think there were soldiers who went to Germany to join the assaults, but Finland never sent them to fight there, it was more of a voluntary thing, same as Swedish volunteers came to fight for Finland)
Aaanyway, I recall reading that Finland had highest amount of 'aces '(relative) in the airforces, though they also had massive losses, lost around 30% of the airforces (absolute number of some 30? )
Oh... and now I notice that Doh! posted exactly about this 
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 11:07 Post subject: |
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Don't forget the Polish guys who joined the RAF, they were brave mean bastards.
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Ankh
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Doh!
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 13:19 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 13:37 Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
With 168 confirmed (possibly as high as 195) kills, Knispel was by far the most successful tanker of the Second World War and is even credited with knocking out a T-34 at 3,000 metres (3,300 yd). He fought in virtually every type of German tank as loader, gunner and commander. He was awarded the Iron Cross, First Class, after destroying his fiftieth enemy tank and the Tank Assault Badge in Gold after more than 100 tank battles. When Knispel had destroyed 126 enemy tanks (with another 20 unconfirmed kills), he was awarded the German Cross in Gold. He became the only non-commissioned officer of the German tank arm to be named in a Wehrmacht communique. As commander of a Tiger I and then a Tiger II, Knispel destroyed another 42 enemy tanks
Knispel's slow promotion is attributed to several conflicts with higher Nazi authorities (for instance, he assaulted an Einsatzgruppen officer whom he saw mistreating Soviet POWs) and general lack of military bearing, sporting a goatee and hair longer than regulations. Only his impressive track-record saved him from ending up in a military prison.
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Hahaha, the dude sounds awesome  Unlike a lot of people, I never held any feelings of malice towards German soldiers as, for the most part, they were just soldiers following orders and honestly believing they were doing what was best for Germany. I despise the SS, but soldiers like that? I actually respect them as I would any other soldier defending their country. Besides... he's an epic tank Ace
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 13:43 Post subject: |
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| sabin1981 wrote: | | Quote: |
With 168 confirmed (possibly as high as 195) kills, Knispel was by far the most successful tanker of the Second World War and is even credited with knocking out a T-34 at 3,000 metres (3,300 yd). He fought in virtually every type of German tank as loader, gunner and commander. He was awarded the Iron Cross, First Class, after destroying his fiftieth enemy tank and the Tank Assault Badge in Gold after more than 100 tank battles. When Knispel had destroyed 126 enemy tanks (with another 20 unconfirmed kills), he was awarded the German Cross in Gold. He became the only non-commissioned officer of the German tank arm to be named in a Wehrmacht communique. As commander of a Tiger I and then a Tiger II, Knispel destroyed another 42 enemy tanks
Knispel's slow promotion is attributed to several conflicts with higher Nazi authorities (for instance, he assaulted an Einsatzgruppen officer whom he saw mistreating Soviet POWs) and general lack of military bearing, sporting a goatee and hair longer than regulations. Only his impressive track-record saved him from ending up in a military prison.
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Hahaha, the dude sounds awesome Unlike a lot of people, I never held any feelings of malice towards German soldiers as, for the most part, they were just soldiers following orders and honestly believing they were doing what was best for Germany. I despise the SS, but soldiers like that? I actually respect them as I would any other soldier defending their country. Besides... he's an epic tank Ace |
I know alot about German soldiers back then because of my great grandfather. Actual Nazi-Scum was extremely rare in the Reichswehr/Wehrmacht/Heer and not liked at all. Those fucks obviously all wanted to great elite of their stupidity. The SS.
Sadly, many of the younger ones were extremely brainwashed. But the chance that most of the Soldiers that were already in the army or even fought at WW1 are actually strong believers in National-Socialism was very very low.
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garus
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 13:46 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:31; edited 1 time in total
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zmed
Posts: 9234
Location: Orbanistan
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 13:48 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: | | I always wondered. How do they those kills in the heat of battle? |
Did it stop moving and/or is on fire? That's one.
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 13:49 Post subject: |
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| garus wrote: |
I always wondered. How do they those kills in the heat of battle? |
As far as I know, they counted them while fighting. You constantly had to do status reports so your tank crew stays effective and does select the next primary target. There was alot going on in those driving metal coffins back then.
| zmed wrote: | | garus wrote: | | I always wondered. How do they those kills in the heat of battle? |
Did it stop moving and/or is on fire? That's one. |
Yep, when the enemy tank isn't operational anymore, may it be because the crew is dead or fled, it's on fire or exploded, it's a kill.
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Last edited by m3th0d2008 on Sun, 13th May 2012 13:51; edited 1 time in total
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garus
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 13:50 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:31; edited 1 time in total
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zmed
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garus
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 14:31 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:31; edited 1 time in total
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garus
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 14:33 Post subject: |
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snip
Last edited by garus on Tue, 27th Aug 2024 21:31; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 15:57 Post subject: |
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| zipfero wrote: | Eh, because they were the invading force and also lost? Nobody likes a loser.
But yes Red Tails was indeed awful. Not really propaganda filled, just really really bad as a movie. |
maybe need to learn some history , france and britain declared war on germany, and france also attacked and invaded first, but they suck and didnt get far.
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| Posted: Sun, 13th May 2012 19:57 Post subject: |
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I think you will find the invasion of Poland had something to do with Britain declaring war, if anything we waited to long whilst Hitler had free reign to build up his armaments despite the treaty of Versailles. And don't give the French such a hard time without the resistance many more Allies would have died.
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Even as bad as the acting and script was 
+ His plane was never once hit and that with a 94 kill tally. He flew around in both american and german planes to top it off 
