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SpykeZ




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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 18:59    Post subject: Nvidia eyes entry into CPU market
Source

Another link

Quote:

Could a new, indigenously designed CPU help Nvidia compete against industry heavyweights such as Intel and AMD?

Well, according to In-Stat analyst Jim McGregor, Nvidia has little choice but to develop such a processor if it hopes to maintain and improve its current market position.


lol good luck, they already lost millions on their new super awesome video cards, not sure they have the place to be digging into a whole nother market that they have no experience in, but then again they need to do something. It could be good if they got into the desktop/laptop cpu's, would be great competition for intel, amd is already cheap as it is Smile

Is Intel still planning on getting into the gfx card band wagon? lara bee or whatever it was called
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FastMemFirst




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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 19:59    Post subject:
CPU doesnt mean it has to be x86. Maybe they see a chance in the next console generation.

edit: id better read the source next time. "Our CPU strategy is ARM."
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inz




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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 20:55    Post subject:
Quad-Processors (quadcores of course) for eXtreme Gaming - The Way It's Meant To Be Played. Mark my words.
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Epsilon
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 21:08    Post subject:
But Windows 7 doesn't currently run on ARM.
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LeoNatan
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 21:15    Post subject:
ARM = RISC = FAIL

This will probably be more of a mobile platform competing with Qualcomm and the likes, rather than a true competitor to Intel or AMD (or any other IA-32 CPU manufacturer).
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TSR69
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 21:39    Post subject:
Looking at the market share of AMD versus Intel, AMD is not that big and in the high end market Intel pretty much dominates, bad for us consumers.
I think that NVIDIA will get it right again and I can only welcome more competition.
If you can produce highly sophisticated GPUs that are way more complex than current CPUs why wouldn't they be able to deliver?

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LeoNatan
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 21:52    Post subject:
ARM (or any RISC really) is not an architecture for high performance desktop computing.
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tonizito
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 21:53    Post subject:
Couldn't care less about "tablet devices".
Good luck to nvidia anyway.

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TSR69
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 22:01    Post subject:
iNatan wrote:
ARM (or any RISC really) is not an architecture for high performance desktop computing.

Aren't those terms like CISC or RISC a bit obsolete?
The future of CPUs will be parallel processing and that is something that GPUs can do quite well these days.
In order to squeeze more power out of CPUs software needs to be rewritten and new and better compilers need to be created.
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LeoNatan
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 22:09    Post subject:
GPUs are actually only good for very defined set of tasks. For example, you cannot run Windows on your GPU (or Tesla for that matter). Not every algorithm can be rewritten to be parallel, and compilers have nothing to do with this. There is no magic that can be done to suddenly have everything run in parallel.

The future is actually in hardware accelerated instructions, which increase performance dramatically. For example, AES encryption has been accelerated recently through instructions, and performance is stupendously faster.
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TSR69
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 22:40    Post subject:
So CISC has your preference I guess?
I understand that not every task can be run parallel but some of them can and it is no secret that both Intel and AMD are producing CPUs with more and more cores these days.
Your example of AES, that encryption standard mainly uses integer operations.
If you have for example a 1024 bit integer operations section in a CPU I guess that could speed up all big integer operations, not just AES.
And that is why I think that RISC has more potential, the more instructions a core can carry out the bigger it will become and thus slowing the performance down
An average household PC does not have the necessity to perform tasks like these anyway.
Btw I used 256 bits AES for storing account details and passwords in some file until I forgot the password to decrypt it Laughing

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LeoNatan
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 23:08    Post subject:
That was only an example. MMX and the various SSE extensions are invaluable in today's computing. Remove these, and you take us to Pentium 2 era computing (or even further). Not sure about you, but I do not wish to go back to that period. You cannot rely on parallelism or execution brute force (we've seen that in the P4 era). Intel and AMD have done wonders accelerating execution of these instructions, and while RISC's main idea is that execution of a small amount of instructions is faster, RISC-based CPUs have been going down-hill performance-wise in orders of magnitude outside of specialized hardware (which is not what we are talking about here). The future is a combination of both, hardware accelerated instructions as well as parallel computing. Indeed, we've heard of Intel's 80 core machine which is coming sooner or later.
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Frant
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 23:26    Post subject:
iNatan wrote:
That was only an example. MMX and the various SSE extensions are invaluable in today's computing. Remove these, and you take us to Pentium 2 era computing (or even further). Not sure about you, but I do not wish to go back to that period. You cannot rely on parallelism or execution brute force (we've seen that in the P4 era). Intel and AMD have done wonders accelerating execution of these instructions, and while RISC's main idea is that execution of a small amount of instructions is faster, RISC-based CPUs have been going down-hill performance-wise in orders of magnitude outside of specialized hardware (which is not what we are talking about here). The future is a combination of both, hardware accelerated instructions as well as parallel computing. Indeed, we've heard of Intel's 80 core machine which is coming sooner or later.


Which brings me to PhysX running 8087 instruction set from an age before pentiums or even 286 CPU's. Wink

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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 23:34    Post subject:
Yes, indeed.
http://www.nfohump.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=62378&highlight=deficiency
But that is obviously done on purpose, initially by Ageia and left untouched by nVidia. I would like to believe that this kind of behavior does not occur often. Laughing
Actually, particle and other physics simulation fall well within the parallel computing advantage to a point.
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TSR69
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 23:39    Post subject:
I guess MMX and SSE added some flop extensions to the CPU without the usage of the co-processor.
But lets face it today's programmers are lazy, who can do assembler or hardcore C these days?
No Java or #net is popular now and those compilers produce tons of code and those apps still crash.
To give an example utorrent, the original programmer even rewrote certain C libraries to make it as tiny as possible.
My current utorrent client measures 315 kB, compare that to other torrent clients written in Java or #net.
Enough with the criticism.

Lately I am trying to read up a bit about optical chips, there are some interesting developments there and it seems that it can be incorporated in modern chips soon.

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Frant
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 23:48    Post subject:
Java & .NET aren't really compiled, they're interpreted languages (well, they're pseudo-compiled to IL code), hence the lack of top performance.

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LeoNatan
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 23:51    Post subject:
I don't see your point about Java/.NET. Well, I do about Java, but that is because I hate it with passion Laughing, so it's a different discontentment with it.

Why would anyone who is making a GUI type application work in C or assembly? That's preposterous. What more, with performance difference being negligible in a lot of cases, there is really very reason not to go the .NET route. Assembly (and C to some degree) will always have their use in specialized algorithms, but for a huge portion of software development, higher level languages and frameworks are even recommended because they are a lot more fool-proof.
As for lazy developers, this has always been the case. The difference is, a lazy C/C++ developer has a lot more potential to screw things up than a C# developer.
And it doesn't help that languages like C++ are archaic in both syntax and functionality, and it seems this will never change. I mean, C++0x was initially supposed to be this savior that would bring C++ into modern times. Instead, it got bogged down by committees, old dinosaurs and silly compatibility requirements. And still it is nowhere to be found. Should actually be called C++x0... Laughing
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LeoNatan
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PostPosted: Sat, 14th Aug 2010 23:55    Post subject:
Frant wrote:
Java & .NET aren't really compiled, they're interpreted languages (well, they're pseudo-compiled to IL code), hence the lack of top performance.

That's not true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahead-of-time_compilation (vs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Image_Generator
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Frant
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 00:03    Post subject:
iNatan wrote:
Frant wrote:
Java & .NET aren't really compiled, they're interpreted languages (well, they're pseudo-compiled to IL code), hence the lack of top performance.

That's not true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahead-of-time_compilation (vs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Image_Generator


Quote:
Most languages with a managed runtime that can be compiled to an intermediate language take advantage of just-in-time (JIT).


C# for instance is interpreted to IL-code which is then temporarily compiled at runtime. The terminology I'm using isn't really right though since what I mean with compiled code is that you compile the code to a binary .exe file, completely baked. With Java/.NET you can't do that, you run IL-code that is compiled JIT/AOT.

Back when I programmed assembler on the Amiga (68K Assembler) the source code was compiled into binary code, including libraries and stuff that was called in the beginning of the source. That's a compiled program in my old terminology.

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LeoNatan
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 00:09    Post subject:
No no, you did not understand the purpose of NIG. It generates a compiled image for CIL, not C#. Hence, "Native".

Quote:
The Native Image Generator produces a native binary image for the current environment (i.e; operating systems). This eliminates the JIT overhead at the expense of portability; whenever an NGEN-generated image is run in an incompatible environment, .NET framework automatically reverts to using JIT. Once NGEN is run against an assembly, the resulting native image is placed into the Native Image Cache for use by all other .NET assemblies. This makes it possible, for example, to use NGEN to process .NET assemblies at installation time, saving processor time later on, when the end-user invokes the application on their system.


NGEN is also run when installing the framework itself, which insures performance with framework modules to be optimal.

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TSR69
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 00:09    Post subject:
Well I am not going to argue about that with you Natan since it is your specialisation Smile
.net interpreted? Wow Mickeysoft created a modern gwbasic, Bill must be proud Laughing

I guess we know that developments are based on economic growth, still the trend in software is to produce more and more code instead of optimising it.
I would gladly see the latter.
During the end of the Cold War, Russia produced chips the size of a foot but they really optimised the code.

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LeoNatan
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 00:10    Post subject:
JIT compilation is not interpretation lol.

But I agree about optimization. I am just saying, the two things are not mutually exclusive. Wink
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TSR69
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 00:30    Post subject:
Frant wrote:
 Spoiler:
 


C# for instance is interpreted to IL-code which is then temporarily compiled at runtime. The terminology I'm using isn't really right though since what I mean with compiled code is that you compile the code to a binary .exe file, completely baked. With Java/.NET you can't do that, you run IL-code that is compiled JIT/AOT.

Back when I programmed assembler on the Amiga (68K Assembler) the source code was compiled into binary code, including libraries and stuff that was called in the beginning of the source. That's a compiled program in my old terminology.

I think I need to do some reading up.
It has been too long that I kept up with technological developments, I used to read a lot of magazines in the past, like the Byte for example.
That was a very nice magazine, I loved the columns of Jerry Pournelle for example, a SF writer who has written a couple of books together with Arthur C. Clarke.
He had a dual processor PC that he bought from Gateway and he called it TwoCows Very Happy
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Epsilon
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 00:32    Post subject:
what the fuck http://sourceforge.net/projects/mynes/
Well thats certainly something.
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LeoNatan
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 00:35    Post subject:
Ahaha and I am writing my PS3 emolator in VB.NET! Laughing
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Epsilon
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 00:46    Post subject:
iNatan wrote:
Ahaha and I am writing my PS3 emolator in VB.NET! Laughing

Where do these people come from?!, why would they want to create an emulator in C#, are they masochists?, are they purposefully trying to piss people like me off, what is going on, I don't understand this at all!
Sad
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LeoNatan
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 00:50    Post subject:
Could be a project to learn the in and outs of the language and the framework. Wink
Sitting, reading tutorials in the nets is not something everyone can do without a real motivation. This way he is both excited about actually achieving something he is interested in, and he also learns as goes along. Nothing wrong with that.
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ixigia
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 00:54    Post subject:


*restored* Razz


Random creations of an insane mind / Screens from Bulgaria [Early Access]

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LeoNatan
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 01:01    Post subject:
Moved or deleted... Confused
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TSR69
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PostPosted: Sun, 15th Aug 2010 01:07    Post subject:
I guess ixigia is baffled Razz

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