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Horrordee
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Posts: 8868
Location: England
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 Posted: Tue, 16th Jun 2009 19:39 Post subject: Hydrogen Cars - How far away are we? |
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they run on hydrogen, are very efficient. have already met high top speeds (>95mph).
so from people who know shit, how far are we from seeing these on the streets? mass scale?
and how will the problems be overcome - refueling station networks? the fact hydrogen is most cheaply and commonly produced from fossil fuels?
someone give me the low down - i'm interested!
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Rinze
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jun 2009 20:00 Post subject: |
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There are some prototypes on the street already, especially buses. Mass scale probably never. Hydrogen is a very crappy way of storing energy.
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deelix
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jun 2009 20:22 Post subject: |
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| Krille666 wrote: | | Rinze wrote: | | There are some prototypes on the street already, especially buses. Mass scale probably never. Hydrogen is a very crappy way of storing energy. |
Not when you force two hydrogen atoms to fuse together!  |
He meant storing, not releasing energy 
OT:
Until we change the way we use fossil fuel, and until the whole world evolves around oil and gas as their main means for fuel, probably never. As Rinze said, the main problem in Hydrogen is storage. For liquid, pure H2 that is, you need to have a cryo chambers with temp around 20 K if I'm not mistaken, and that also means low pressure (PV=nRT the ideal gas law, there are some differences between real and ideal, but no need to go there  ). And as I've said the oil companies prevent any major research on that subject because it would mean the loss of money for them...
EDIT: Oh yeah I forgot! 1 liter of Hydrogen is about 0.05kg (low density), and aside that it's very hard to storage, it is explosive (well mixed with oxygen that is). So you have safety hazard as well...
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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Horrordee
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Posts: 8868
Location: England
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jun 2009 20:29 Post subject: |
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so in your opinions, its not going to be the solution?
why didn't that water power drill thing take off? surely they could power cars on water if people tried hard enough?
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Ispep
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jun 2009 20:38 Post subject: |
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In the UK they are going electric so I guess for us... never?
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jun 2009 20:40 Post subject: |
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| Ispep wrote: | | In the UK they are going electric so I guess for us... never? |
I take it you didn't bother reading that link I posted then, no problem:
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He hopes to lease the first fleet in 2011, in a small UK city. The leasing cost will include free access to a dedicated hydrogen station operated by the company and is predicted to be around £200 ($330) a month. |
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jun 2009 20:49 Post subject: |
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I'm not saying it's impossible. I think that for physicist there are no impossible things, just not very probable 
As my professor said: Superconductivity at room temperature, yeah it will be achieved, but when, I really can't tell you.
So you see, it can be made, but the whole process has to be extensively studied, so that you can reduce the cost of the parts needed to build a proper car. And that costs money, and the ones who have the money are greedy bastards who will give you money only if you make sth that benefits them.
A good example is this scientist from Croatia. After university he left to Switzerland to work as a scientist. He got a job at some guy who produced milk, and stored it in a tetra pack. This scientist got the money to do a research on how to make the aluminum layer on the inside of the tetra pack thinner. He did that and reduced it to a few micro meters or sth like that. He got the money and was very happy that he made that research and he helped that man. But the thing is that by reducing the aluminum layer he saved million and millions of dollars worth of aluminum, because that man who produced the packs didn't need to buy extra aluminum and he got much more money than the scientist.
So you see everything in the end turns out to be done for some interest. The same thing is with Tesla and free electricity (true it was all high frequency but hey, nobody's perfect ).
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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Ronhrin
Banned
Posts: 6428
Location: Paradigms are changeable, reality is absolute.
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jun 2009 20:52 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: | | true it was all high frequency but hey, nobody's perfect ). |
I am
He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither
- Benjamin Franklin - 1759
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Ispep
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Posts: 4117
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jun 2009 20:53 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I take it you didn't bother reading that link I posted |
Well no, because when I opened the thread your post wasn't there so I couldn't have. What you posted is interesting, but where is the hydrogen coming from? As far as I was aware the government is behind electric and this is just some enterprising individuals, not a government backed scheme? |
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jun 2009 20:58 Post subject: |
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| Ronhrin wrote: | | dingo_d wrote: | | true it was all high frequency but hey, nobody's perfect ). |
I am |
That reminded me of this practicum I had (about mathematical pendulum), and assistant asked me like what if you had everything perfect, you know ACME (he really said that), why couldn't you get the same results from measuring as you would get by theory? I said, everything perfect? And he said, even you, and I said, oh thank you We laughed later
"Quantum mechanics is actually, contrary to it's reputation, unbeliveably simple, once you take the physics out."
Scott Aaronson | chiv wrote: | | thats true you know. newton didnt discover gravity. the apple told him about it, and then he killed it. the core was never found. |
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| Posted: Tue, 16th Jun 2009 20:58 Post subject: |
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| Ispep wrote: | | Quote: | | I take it you didn't bother reading that link I posted |
Well no, because when I opened the thread your post wasn't there so I couldn't have. What you posted is interesting, but where is the hydrogen coming from? As far as I was aware the government is behind electric and this is just some enterprising individuals, not a government backed scheme? |
If it's commercially viable the government doesn't need any involvement for it to be successful. Also, it's not difficult to refine hydrogen, it's everywhere and a natural by-product of the processing of hydrocarbons in the manufacture of classical fuels.
One of the primary difficulties is storage of high density liquid hydrogen for fuel purposes, but it looks like they've solved that if they intend to offer dedicated hydrogen refuelling stations.
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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deelix
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Location: Norway
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
Location: White Shaft
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Jun 2009 06:23 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Jun 2009 06:49 Post subject: |
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If you mix Hydrogen on the submolecular level and apply zeroid atoms on base level with carpendicular trombasoid then its already proven that fuel efficiency and tiroxic combustion can have splendid results, its exactly this, the fusion of two entropic compounds, its simple really, combine the phlogiston theory with Lavoisier's law and you have a perfect example of how disembodying 2 particles can have devestating effects on the positive charge in the nucleus, even a retard can see this, so yeah its allready possible, will it come, nope cuz like natural gass, price of hydrogen will shoot through the roof once it hits mainstream. What good will it do to our pockets, nothing.
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Jun 2009 14:41 Post subject: |
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| deelix wrote: | Cars without any sound is gonna be boring tho 
There might even be an increase in collisions because you can't hear them. But a part from that, its great  ppl will probably use their horn more^^
Still think most people will be buying hybrids for at least 10 more years tho. |
No but we can have huge stereo setups to play looped tapes of any car engine noise we want at full bore out the windows. should make up for it pretty good |
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Bigperm
Posts: 1908
Location: Alberta,Canada
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Jun 2009 21:06 Post subject: |
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| dingo_d wrote: |
And as I've said the oil companies prevent any major research on that subject because it would mean the loss of money for them...
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Oh noes, the evil oil company. Do you actually believe this? Oil companies stay in business by replacing reserves through drilling and enhanced/unconventional recovery. Hence they can switch gears quickly. If anyone would invest money into a new energy source it would be petroleum companies. They are not tied directly to petroleum, and can diversify quite easily. They also have extensive amounts of capital at there disposal.We are in our second year of farming, and doing quite well. Ethanol fuel technology is slowly raising food costs, hence why we are farming. I am a partner in a junior oil and gas company. We donate more than most middle class families make a year to the university for research grants, and my family actually holds a chair at a certain Canadian university.
Hydrogen cars are a pipe dream at best. Cars as transportation cant last, and new technology will push us away from conventional transportation, IMO.
Imagine a hydrogen car in the Canadian winter.
I am a environment lover, but don't call me an environmentalist. David Suzuki is a quack, as well as most other so called socialist/elitist um i mean environmentalists.
We are in global cooling cycle. The arrogance of man: To think we actually have any control.
Al Gore is a fool IMHO.
| Jenni wrote: | | I drunk. I don't fucking care! |
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Jun 2009 21:42 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Wed, 17th Jun 2009 21:54 Post subject: |
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deelix
PDIP Member
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Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu, 18th Jun 2009 11:49 Post subject: |
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| Posted: Thu, 18th Jun 2009 14:35 Post subject: |
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real men drive with v8s and on gas.
fuck this enivironmental bullshit.
yes
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deelix
PDIP Member
Posts: 32062
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu, 18th Jun 2009 14:42 Post subject: |
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| cnZ wrote: | real men drive with v8s and on gas.
fuck this enivironmental bullshit. |
v8 gets expensive to own, unless your car is uberlight.
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| Posted: Thu, 18th Jun 2009 14:58 Post subject: |
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Hardly, it definitely has it's applications, but it's far less practicable then hydrogen fuel cells as power for a car. Would be awesome for mobile phones though!
"Techniclly speaking, Beta-Manboi didnt inject Burberry_Massi with Benz, he injected him with liquid that had air bubbles in it, which caused benz." - House M.D
"Faith without logic is the same as knowledge without understanding; meaningless"
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| Posted: Thu, 18th Jun 2009 15:55 Post subject: |
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Why? Here you just open the window and you are good to go hehe.
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deelix
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Posts: 32062
Location: Norway
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| Posted: Thu, 18th Jun 2009 16:19 Post subject: |
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my rover's computer shows it eats ~12l/100km while using cruise control driving 100-110km/h
so it's not bad at all for that mass.
yes
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