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 Posted: Tue, 26th Jul 2005 19:22 Post subject: |
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| halfluke wrote: |
The whole matter will require some work by "the final user", and there will be a different patching at least for each media brand which you're going to burn on. |
Umm isn't the whole point of cloning to be to present an easily burnable version of a game which is burnable on any media and any drive so long as they are of sufficient quality to accurately replicate the original? Or are they talking a bit of BS and require emulation as well as disk copying?
Sorry but between their confused at best rhetoric regarding pseudocode and how they have completely decompiled it (from a group with no cracked SF releases nor apparently a complete understanding of the SF virtual machine) and this I'm a bit lost as to what they are saying. The only releases to show an understanding of SF virtual machine to date are the Ultima ones, all the other releases are done the hard way which doesn't need you to understand wtf is going on just to have the time to replicate it with IA-32 opcodes.
Might just be bad translation, but strikes me as BS at the moment, especially the pcodes stuff, having spoken to someone who has done far more to decompile the SF virtual machines than me he's as confused on this as I am, there's a hell of a lot more to the SF virtual machine than these guys seem to think. There's far too much of an obsession with how many pseudocodes are being used, but SF is not a 1:1 relationship between opcodes and pseudocode representations being executed in the SF virtual machine, then there's variations in the way the opcodes are being executed in the VM, which is why Trackmania is untouched even though it has no more pseudocodes incorporated in the protect.dll than some cracked releases, the VM itself is more resilient than previous releases.
Anyway I'll leave them to hype themselves to death, hell I could be completely wrong, we'll see, personally I certainly wouldn't publicly release SF3 disassembly or decompilation tools 
Last edited by CableMunkeh on Tue, 26th Jul 2005 19:22; edited 1 time in total
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Lutzifer
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| Posted: Tue, 26th Jul 2005 19:22 Post subject: |
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| CableMunkeh wrote: | | halfluke wrote: |
The whole matter will require some work by "the final user", and there will be a different patching at least for each media brand which you're going to burn on. |
Umm isn't the whole point of cloning to be to present an easily burnable version of a game which is burnable on any media and any drive so long as they are of sufficient quality to accurately replicate the original?
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No, the whole point of cloning is having an identical version. Since the used protection and the available hardware contraints the easy copying into clones like with say clone-cd, its not trivial. But if you have to use different means for different systems and come to the same ends, its still a clone. Ask my sheep dolly, she knows all about it  |
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Lutzifer
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Posts: 12740
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| Posted: Tue, 26th Jul 2005 19:28 Post subject: |
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as i m not familiar with the peculiarities of the protection and the method to fuck it up, i m as stumped as you are for an answer. Still, if the copyprotection handles different brands of media and burners differently, or is able to get information on the fakeness of the copy from clues gathered by either from the burning process or from the used media, as they seem to claim it does, you have to defeat those techniques somehow, so why not with different algorythms based on the system. Cloning only refers to the outcome. Remember the problems with early clonecd versions that only could do 1:1 copies on certain burners? Its kinda the same, just the other way around i guess
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| Posted: Tue, 26th Jul 2005 19:45 Post subject: |
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the problem is that the protection simple not possible to create an real 1:1 clone that works on all dvdburners,dvdroms cause the disc timing check it to accurate.(dvd burners then need new technique to burn the disc)
but Memorex media should work almost all the time.
but anyway theire are new emulating tools coming so that solves the problem .
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| Posted: Tue, 26th Jul 2005 21:12 Post subject: |
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@cablemunkeh
I always read your posts very carefully, because you seem to me to know very well what you are usually talking about, but I never liked your way to criticize everything and everybody.
Moreover, this time you accuse of bullshit in an unpleasant way:
they wrote they have fully understood how pcodes work and so on, but they never claimed they will release cracks.
They said they will release a method to clone, that's something rather different from cracking techniques.
I can't understand if you are, generally speaking, only pessimistic, or, far worse, a protections supporter.
I read a lot and write very little, and I have no reason to doubt of Morglum's seriousness.
Period.
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| Posted: Tue, 26th Jul 2005 22:13 Post subject: |
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Well, I appreciate your last post.
I just can't answer on the technical part, 'cause i'm not a technician, only a philosopher interested in this battlefield because i think it can have consequences on the way we imagine how a civil society should be.
exceptionally, i will post here the official reply by Morglum.
He stresses the fact cdsteam is not a scene group, and then:
"1.- we havent got a lot of visits ever, so we didnt care about, we have always very few visits, but those which are important to us.
2.- maybe he know what the hell about cd2dvd conversion
cdsteam was the first ( and personally me) to show general public how to do so. Ask anybody from where they obtained info about orca, advanced i6comp using, little scripts unpacking and so on
before cdsteam, there was no info about such programs
we have the older non microsoft related orca specs for games ever ( see cdsteam forums, toca1, a few years ago) when no one knew anything about
2.- he may have doubts about vm, but we have teached a lot of people about vm working, and we speak so clear cause most users could comprehend it
3.- a
we have been working on twin method long ago and i was the first to say twinpeaks method will copy sf, just look at cdfreaks post, look for morglum and sf related post
it is more a year of oldness
when we say 1:1 copy, we say older 1:1 copy, installs and play from EVERYWHERE
and finally he can ask about me on cdfreaks, and search related post, they will see we are not dumb, we know more than he expect
doubts are allowed, but not his way of doubting
we have info and cracks about themida/xprotector
reloaded knows us, and we know them, and exchange info"
I hope Morglum will be able to register on nforce forum, to continue the discussion if he feels like to.
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jul 2005 04:10 Post subject: |
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cdsteam probably the only one advanced cracking group left. its just very cool they working on tools to crack protections thats the smartest way with cracking especialy now .
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jul 2005 10:31 Post subject: |
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| CableMunkeh wrote: |
Umm isn't the whole point of cloning to be to present an easily burnable version of a game which is burnable on any media and any drive so long as they are of sufficient quality to accurately replicate the original? Or are they talking a bit of BS and require emulation as well as disk copying? |
Your right with that but cdsteam was never a research group that wanted to develop a tool or tools that create such stuff. The neduser always have to fix some stuff for his localiced hardware. It saves CDSteam also from the point there tools can be used for the cloning groups in scene what in my eyes is the biggest bullshit ever. CLONE = want to play with all patches but not waiting for Cracks - in my eyes thats the point the company deserves you go buy the Game!!
| CableMunkeh wrote: |
Sorry but between their confused at best rhetoric regarding pseudocode and how they have completely decompiled it (from a group with no cracked SF releases nor apparently a complete understanding of the SF virtual machine) and this I'm a bit lost as to what they are saying. The only releases to show an understanding of SF virtual machine to date are the Ultima ones, all the other releases are done the hard way which doesn't need you to understand wtf is going on just to have the time to replicate it with IA-32 opcodes. |
Your wrong about that. Some -if not even all - from cdsteam are former crackers of the scene (DEViANCE, FAIRLIGHT, IMMERSION, RAZOR, SOULDRINKER) who showed enough times they can crack proper. They are in some cases much better skilled then the ones that crack protections today (RLD, HLM - they all cooperate with one or more of the cdsteam members to learn from them).
But scene went to a direction these ppl and alot of others dont want to be a part of this "scene" as there are a big amount of asses - esp in movie, clone groups, xxx - that sell their brains (slots, dvds, ...) to others for big money. And since profit came into games scene too (FAIRLIGHT, HOODLUM/MYTH busts wich are proofen by FBI were money related busts) they left but that doesnt mean they dont want to research protections. They do but they just dont go public with every small success happend.
So long.
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jul 2005 13:54 Post subject: |
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| highstuff wrote: |
but an powerfull nocdcrack with also only one main cracked game executable so no hundreds of patched files like previous FLT,IMS,Rld sf3 cracks .and rld is learning from them so i don't think rld will acuse them for anything cause that is not in theire interest . |
sorry thats not possible with a exe crack as sfe sometimes (always when you see more then 1 protected executeable or dll protected you will have to crack more files AND if game data is protected you cant catch the data from memory with a patched exe you always need either a patched/cracked dll the way ultima doing it or dumped data from memory like RLD/IMS did. Only an exe can never be if it comes to protected datafiles!
About blacklisting it is not possible as the clone tool goes the way backwards how sf3 protects discs. Your "copy" is somehow a 1:1 mastered CD after patching the image so that it is working with the original sf3 given serial which includes DPM data, CD name and other stuff.
Cracking tools will of course never go public as if you know how they crack you can update your protection to stop that. Same is happen with protect.dlll cracks. Mainly a "simple" drivers update can stop it so you always need to remove drivers and then run the game so that you use the drivers used to decrypt/patch the dll.
| CableMunkeh wrote: |
I'm aware of some of this dude and thanks for clearing it up, if these guys know ways that I am not aware of all respect to them. Thanks also for the bit regarding learning enough to emulate CD checks, rather than completely understand the VM, that's what I was interested in, knowing enough to break it and claiming to be able to decompile the whole thing are somewhat different things. |
decrypting VM is the "easiest part" and you never need to fully understand the VM, you mainly need to check/trace what it does when exe/dll jumps into it so that you gain f.e. the real opcode instead of the sf3 provided one but thats far far away from understanding .
but atm most cracking grps cant even decrypt the VM and to patch the VM so that you dont need to rebuild fils you need to bypass a lot of vm protected!!! calls that crc the VM in memory. Easiest way is to backup the VM, decrypt only the backup in memory and then patch only a few calls virtually and copy them at the rigfht playce when the function is called.
I guess you understand now where the problem is. Its not the cracking of the dll, its the reinmject code so that you can bypass the crc checks ... otherwise you have sometimes 100s of more protected calls to crack then just rebuilding the exe.
Thats probably somehow the reason why DIE, IMS, RLD rebuild the exe
and ULTIMA does the dll. To crack the dll you need to be "god"
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jul 2005 14:15 Post subject: |
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| Freakshow wrote: | | Thats probably somehow the reason why DIE, IMS, RLD rebuild the exe and ULTIMA does the dll. To crack the dll you need to be "god" |
But what is the problem for other groups to learn the way Ultima goes (dll cracking)? Is not it possible to analyze Ultima cracks and just use their method on all Starforce titles?
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jul 2005 14:32 Post subject: |
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bad side about Ultima cracks r that ugly sf drivers still active in youre system..
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TheDuck
Posts: 148
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jul 2005 15:20 Post subject: |
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| Freakshow wrote: |
Thats probably somehow the reason why DIE, IMS, RLD rebuild the exe
and ULTIMA does the dll. To crack the dll you need to be "god" |
Thats not true, to create fully decrypted exe/dll/datafiles you need to understand the VM _FULLY_ not just some crc opcodes and rerouting some ops to "hooked" ones just to bypass cdcheck, Ultima way is easiest way possible for sf cracking. To make a full crack you need a logger, so log everything, means bypass all crc-checks, under ring3 and ring0, solve many maaany tricks used in the vm and so on, then analyse the logs, get the original code, rewrite the stolen opcodes into the exe/dlls, play the game entirely to get all protected data files - so please dont tell me which way requires a "god" 
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jul 2005 15:24 Post subject: |
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| TheDuck wrote: | | Freakshow wrote: |
Thats probably somehow the reason why DIE, IMS, RLD rebuild the exe
and ULTIMA does the dll. To crack the dll you need to be "god" |
Thats not true, to create fully decrypted exe/dll/datafiles you need to understand the VM _FULLY_ not just some crc opcodes and rerouting some ops to "hooked" ones just to bypass cdcheck, Ultima way is easiest way possible for sf cracking. To make a full crack you need a logger, so log everything, means bylass all crc-checks, under ring3 and ring0, solve many maaany tricks used in the vm and so on, then analyse the logs, get the original code, rewrite the stolen opcodes into the exe/dlls, play the game entirely to get all protected data files - so please dont tell me which way requires a "god" |
You've no idea how the ULT cracks work methinks, and I find the idea that RLD, etc, would rather spend weeks working on a release the extremely slow and painful way than use this so called easy method hilarious dude
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TheDuck
Posts: 148
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jul 2005 15:30 Post subject: |
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Maybe because ULT cracks are not working after driver update - full cracks work to this day since they were released. Oh and I know how ULT cracks work.
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jul 2005 15:39 Post subject: |
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| CableMunkeh wrote: | | TheDuck wrote: | | Freakshow wrote: |
Thats probably somehow the reason why DIE, IMS, RLD rebuild the exe
and ULTIMA does the dll. To crack the dll you need to be "god" |
Thats not true, to create fully decrypted exe/dll/datafiles you need to understand the VM _FULLY_ not just some crc opcodes and rerouting some ops to "hooked" ones just to bypass cdcheck, Ultima way is easiest way possible for sf cracking. To make a full crack you need a logger, so log everything, means bylass all crc-checks, under ring3 and ring0, solve many maaany tricks used in the vm and so on, then analyse the logs, get the original code, rewrite the stolen opcodes into the exe/dlls, play the game entirely to get all protected data files - so please dont tell me which way requires a "god" |
You've no idea how the ULT cracks work methinks, and I find the idea that RLD, etc, would rather spend weeks working on a release the extremely slow and painful way than use this so called easy method hilarious dude |
read Vengeance and Reloaded theire nfo they said under current scene rules ,with game cracks the commercial protection must be totaly removed. while this is absolute not the case with Ultima cracks .. thats why no other scene group have created this kind of crack . its not an clean crack 1its not nocd , 2 ugly sf driver still intact..
even though would be better if more groups created cracks like this better then no crack at all.
Last edited by highstuff on Wed, 27th Jul 2005 15:44; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Wed, 27th Jul 2005 17:00 Post subject: |
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| jaapie18 wrote: |
Lets hope for groups like Ultima |
no need to hope you will never ever see a ULTIMA crack for the scene!
| TheDuck wrote: |
Thats not true, to create fully decrypted exe/dll/datafiles you need to understand the VM _FULLY_ not just some crc opcodes and rerouting some ops to "hooked" ones just to bypass cdcheck, Ultima way is easiest way possible for sf cracking. To make a full crack you need a logger, so log everything, means bypass all crc-checks, under ring3 and ring0, solve many maaany tricks used in the vm and so on, then analyse the logs, get the original code, rewrite the stolen opcodes into the exe/dlls, play the game entirely to get all protected data files - so please dont tell me which way requires a "god" |
Your abit right with exe [even i prefer dll for some to you known reasons] is harder but not that much as you have to fuck al ring3 and ringo crcs too doing it the dll way and hey dont tell me about many tricks in VM you have to bypass them once too. The advantage dll way has is you do it once and can use the same patching for all versions with same vm/drivers. But to be true you allways need to remove drivers after update and add the ingame delivered ones.
| TheDuck wrote: |
Maybe because ULT cracks are not working after driver update - full cracks work to this day since they were released. Oh and I know how ULT cracks work. |
I hope so and im sure you know
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