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 Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 16:45 Post subject: |
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| xDBS wrote: | | I was born in England, and theirs no way I want to go back to that shit hole. 50% of my yearly taxes were taken, and it was mostly for medical which was 35% i believe? How is that any different then insurance exactly? It isn't |
This applies for most people... you don't pay national insurance on the first £7748 you earn per year, then you pay 12% on up to the next £32292 you earn, and then if you earn more than that amount another 12% on the next £1404 and then 2% on anything more.
Earn £100,000 per year and you pay £5214.64 in national insurance. https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance-contributions-for-employers/national-insurance-contribution-rates
Ryzen 5 5600, ASUS ROG STRIX B550-F GAMING WIFI II, Corsair Vengeance RGB RT 32GB 3600MHz C16, MSI RTX 5070 Ti Ventus 3X OC , Corsair RMx Series RM750x. AOC AGON AG324UX - 4K 144Hz 1ms
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Saner
Posts: 6877
Location: Uk
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 16:46 Post subject: |
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You can see I removed that as I really can't be arsed with it. If you want people to believe you had 50% of your wages snatched away, and 35% of that was for the evil NHS then so be it. I have better things to do.
| ragnarus wrote: |
I saw things like that in here and in other "woman problems" topics so...... Am I the only one that thinks some authorities needs to be alerted about Saner and him possibly being a rapist and/or kidnapper ? |
Saner is not being serious. Unless its the subject of Santa!
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xDBS
Posts: 1937
Location: USA / Japan
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 16:50 Post subject: |
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I'm not trying to make you believe anything, i'm trying to have a discussion. So 35% of my income was taken. Jesus christ you people lack the ability to discuss. Exactly what's wrong with the world. "I have better things to do" Nice. Very mature.
PC Specs: A Maganavox' Odyssey
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Last edited by xDBS on Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 16:54; edited 1 time in total
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Werelds
Special Little Man
Posts: 15098
Location: 0100111001001100
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 16:51 Post subject: |
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| xDBS wrote: | | I was born in England |
It shows:
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xDBS
Posts: 1937
Location: USA / Japan
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 16:51 Post subject: |
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Furiously typing like a moron that I am. -.-.
But it's not like i screamed. "NO YOU ARE WRONG IF ONLY THEY PAID 40 A MONTH THAT BILL WITH BE A 100$". I was agreeing with them, but humpers always seem to find a way to be mean.
PC Specs: A Maganavox' Odyssey
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14439
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 16:57 Post subject: |
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European healthcare systems = solidarity. In theory everyone pays an equal % tax from their revenue. Everyone is entitled to the same healthcare. Poor people with cancer get the same basic treatment as rich people, which is enough.
The fundamental difference is, even unemployed and low wage people get the right treatment. But there are forces at work to counter this in Europe. Obviously jealousy and greed at work. Private insurance companies (funds) are heavily drooling over the massive amounts of money. Just like they are now slowly getting everyone to put cash into private pensions.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
Last edited by couleur on Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 17:10; edited 1 time in total
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xDBS
Posts: 1937
Location: USA / Japan
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 16:58 Post subject: |
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The problem here, is that Emergency Rooms will take in low income people, and "treat" them per say. They will give them the lowest form of healthcare possible and throw them out the door. A private doctor, will charge half the price, talk with the insurance, and at least work up payment plans for low income people. At least some, not all.
Americans aren't inhumane, it's just a corrupt system.
PC Specs: A Maganavox' Odyssey
Tweaked to play Frogger, Lemmings & GTA4
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xDBS
Posts: 1937
Location: USA / Japan
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 17:00 Post subject: |
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| Saner wrote: | | You can see I removed that as I really can't be arsed with it. If you want people to believe you had 50% of your wages snatched away, and 35% of that was for the evil NHS then so be it. I have better things to do. |
When did I say it was evil. -.-, this guy.
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14439
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 17:09 Post subject: |
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| xDBS wrote: |
Americans aren't inhumane, it's just a corrupt system. |
Yes, that is a pretty common mistake. Of course Americans arent inhuman, but some of them support an inhuman and corrupt system. I suspect due to decades of indoctrination with nationalist BS.
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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xDBS
Posts: 1937
Location: USA / Japan
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 17:12 Post subject: |
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So true, but hopefully, that is slowly changing. It is hard, I see and talk to a lot of people who care, and are very intelligent people. And, of course there are plenty of your stereotypical Americans as you see on TV. But slowly fading away
PC Specs: A Maganavox' Odyssey
Tweaked to play Frogger, Lemmings & GTA4
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 17:13 Post subject: |
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I'd rather pay high taxes (32% which goes to more than just healthcare) and not have to worry if I have the right coverage or not than having to pick a certain insurance company that might later on find some loophole or technicality that takes away my right to have a procedure paid for by the company.
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xDBS
Posts: 1937
Location: USA / Japan
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 17:14 Post subject: |
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In the end, it always comes around to one thing.
Money. This is what needs to change.
PC Specs: A Maganavox' Odyssey
Tweaked to play Frogger, Lemmings & GTA4
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 17:16 Post subject: |
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| xDBS wrote: | In the end, it always comes around to one thing.
Money. This is what needs to change. |
How will that change?
As long as there is an idea of money or something for something how will you separate money from healthcare?
I would go so far and say that when it's socialized that monetary incentive is somewhat removed, not fully but a lot. |
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xDBS
Posts: 1937
Location: USA / Japan
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 17:22 Post subject: |
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| Prefetian wrote: | | xDBS wrote: | In the end, it always comes around to one thing.
Money. This is what needs to change. |
How will that change?
As long as there is an idea of money or something for something how will you separate money from healthcare?
I would go so far and say that when it's socialized that monetary incentive is somewhat removed, not fully but a lot. |
Exactly, and that's the point i was trying to make. That the new medical plan in America isn't socialized at all. It's the same system, but instead, people are force to get "insurance". It's a little more complicated then that, but in the end nothings changed with obamacare. My point originally was to let you guys know that it's definitely not socialized at all.
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 17:34 Post subject: |
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| xDBS wrote: | | Prefetian wrote: | | xDBS wrote: | In the end, it always comes around to one thing.
Money. This is what needs to change. |
How will that change?
As long as there is an idea of money or something for something how will you separate money from healthcare?
I would go so far and say that when it's socialized that monetary incentive is somewhat removed, not fully but a lot. |
Exactly, and that's the point i was trying to make. That the new medical plan in America isn't socialized at all. It's the same system, but instead, people are force to get "insurance". It's a little more complicated then that, but in the end nothings changed with obamacare. My point originally was to let you guys know that it's definitely not socialized at all. |
Yeah, I spoke to my cousin about it who actually has to take it (even though he has a job). How he explained it is that it covers like 75% of the expenses and you still have to pay 7500$ deductible. Either way you're kind of fucked if you get into a situation where something might cost more than a grand cause you're paying 25% of that yourself. |
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zipfero
Posts: 8938
Location: White Shaft
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 17:45 Post subject: |
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| xDBS wrote: | Obamacare is not socialized medicine. Obamacare is just a form of insurance that people are forced to get if they do not have insurance. Ex. Low income woman is forced to pay for insurance.
Most proper insurance companies will pay your entire bill for the most part,(including the new obamacare) most of these bills I see are from people without insurance.
And I see a few people in here saying they have "free medicine" but in reality they don't, when the last time you checked your taxes that they take weekly? monthly? yearly?
Every medical system is corrupt, and one is no better then the next. They all have their pro and cons, and i've seen this traveling the world. Saying Americans are Stupid, because of their medical system is quite silly. And zmed, if you truly understood what an unregulated free market was, then you wouldn't have said that comment. Our medical system is regulated, and America hasn't had a true free market since the "industrial revolution".
I was born in England, and theirs no way I want to go back to that shit hole. 50% of my yearly taxes were taken, and it was mostly for medical which was 35% i believe? How is that any different then insurance exactly? It isn't
Is America medical system awful and corrupt? Sure is, but so is yours, without you even realizing it. You just assume its "great" because it's "free" when it's really not. Nothing in this world is free, you should all know that. But you have nothing to blame but ourselfs for using such a poor method of trade such as paper.
I've been around the world, and all I've seen is hate towards various countries, including america, russia, germany, and japan mostly.. We sit there and let our governments do what they want, without any repercussions, like they control the show. Without the people there is no country. This non understanding of cultures needs to stop, in the end, not being understanding ends up sending us to pointless, and useless wars.
Let's all be adults here, and solve the issue, instead of talking shit about it. Let's use this glorious way of communicating to bring the cultures of the world together, and realize that we are all the same. Just humans trying to live |
Many of the bills arent from people wihtout insurance..Its just what the hospitals charge the insurance companies as well. They also pay OUTRAGEOUS premiums on equipment compared to the rest of the world, without any obvious explanation
8 out of 10 dentists prefer zipfero to competing brands(fraich3 and Mutantius)!
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couleur
[Moderator] Janitor
Posts: 14439
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 18:05 Post subject: |
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I dont remember well enough, but wasnt Obamacare orignally planned to be more socialized but they had to make "amendments" to make the Republicans and some lobbyists happy?
"Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed nonage. Nonage is the inability to use one's own understanding without another's guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one's own mind without another's guidance. Dare to know! (Sapere aude.) "Have the courage to use your own understanding," is therefore the motto of the enlightenment."
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 18:11 Post subject: |
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Last edited by Yondaime on Mon, 2nd Dec 2024 15:38; edited 1 time in total
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 18:28 Post subject: |
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| xDBS wrote: | Obamacare is not socialized medicine. Obamacare is just a form of insurance that people are forced to get if they do not have insurance. Ex. Low income woman is forced to pay for insurance.
Most proper insurance companies will pay your entire bill for the most part,(including the new obamacare) most of these bills I see are from people without insurance.
And I see a few people in here saying they have "free medicine" but in reality they don't, when the last time you checked your taxes that they take weekly? monthly? yearly?
Every medical system is corrupt, and one is no better then the next. They all have their pro and cons, and i've seen this traveling the world. Saying Americans are Stupid, because of their medical system is quite silly. And zmed, if you truly understood what an unregulated free market was, then you wouldn't have said that comment. Our medical system is regulated, and America hasn't had a true free market since the "industrial revolution".
I was born in England, and theirs no way I want to go back to that shit hole. 50% of my yearly taxes were taken, and it was mostly for medical which was 35% i believe? How is that any different then insurance exactly? It isn't
Is America medical system awful and corrupt? Sure is, but so is yours, without you even realizing it. You just assume its "great" because it's "free" when it's really not. Nothing in this world is free, you should all know that. But you have nothing to blame but ourselfs for using such a poor method of trade such as paper.
I've been around the world, and all I've seen is hate towards various countries, including america, russia, germany, and japan mostly.. We sit there and let our governments do what they want, without any repercussions, like they control the show. Without the people there is no country. This non understanding of cultures needs to stop, in the end, not being understanding ends up sending us to pointless, and useless wars.
Let's all be adults here, and solve the issue, instead of talking shit about it. Let's use this glorious way of communicating to bring the cultures of the world together, and realize that we are all the same. Just humans trying to live |
They don't have any idea.
My last 4 years in England have been pretty eye opening. Their socialized healthcare isn't all that they think it to be. Having to pay for insurance also sucks, but it isn't any better or worse then what they have across the pond. The only difference is that getting insurance requires the effort, where as being taxed doesn't. At the end of the day you'll always have people that won't bother getting health insurance and end up with bills like this.
Also, most of these bills I'm seeing are the initial bills before talking to the hospital to be charged what the insurance companies are actually paying. Don't be fooled. That $2 million bill isn't what an insurance company would actually be paying, nor do you without insurance.
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 18:43 Post subject: |
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| BearishSun wrote: | | I'd be interested to hear from an american what the reality there actually is. How much do insurance rates cost? And how much does insurance actually cover? (I see some bills covered by insurance yet non-insured amount is still huge). What is the chance of a normal working insurance-paying individual encountering bills like these? |
I haven't checked prices for myself, but there's equal parts people saving money and some people are getting fucked over. My job provides insurance, but my mother for instance is getting fucked over with a 400 dollar a month bill, she works part time so pretty much all her money is going to just paying her insurance. I know a few other people who have it worse who don't even make enough to pay what they need to and if they don't get insurance they're going to get penalized anyways for not having any.
They really didn't think this through, it could have gone a lot better but....figures it doesn't.
Those costs doesn't even include copays and deductibles you'll have to pay out of pocket before the insurance even kicks in
DBS has it right, this isn't the awesome healthcare Europeans think it is, they're fucking over a lot people to get more money.
Last edited by SpykeZ on Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 18:46; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 18:43 Post subject: |
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US system IS worse than UK or EU in general. Not directly because of forced vs. optional insurance, but because their medical costs are 2-3x the costs of other countries.
And I could argue that is because there is no government insurance and no way to regulate the price so the companies pump them up in order to compete in the market. With government insurance a single company is generally given the contract for a particular equipment/medicine/etc. that ensures sales, which makes the prices go down.
| Quote: | | This year alone, we are likely to spend over $2.8 trillion on health care. We spend more than twice as much on a per capita basis as other high-income countries such as England and France. Indeed, as an article in the Financial Times recently noted, the U.S. spends over 18 percent of its gross domestic product on health, compared to 12 percent by France, which comes next. Our system costs 100 percent more per capita than in Canada and 150 percent more than in the U.K. In exchange, you might expect to see longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality. Just the opposite. Fewer Americans live above the age of 70 and more American babies die at birth than in these other countries. |
EDIT: Thanks for the info Spykez.
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Morphineus
VIP Member
Posts: 24883
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 19:46 Post subject: |
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| SpykeZ wrote: | | DBS has it right, this isn't the awesome healthcare Europeans think it is, they're fucking over a lot people to get more money. |
I think most do know that. I and many others are really baffled about people still wanting to stop the watered down healthcare (and stopping anything that goes into our direction). They picked it apart most likely so people would go: oh it's shit anyway let's stop it.
I just see it as a first step in the right direction (even when they tweaked it to absurdity).
The more as time goes on I am really sorry for the people in the US, for some reason the dinosaurs over there who can change things just don't want to and I really see the country going backwards on all fronts. |
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 19:59 Post subject: |
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I'd have to check my paystub to see what my employer pays for my healthcare but the one time I had to use an ambulance (broke my collar bone, split in two) it cost me $50. Any emergency (that I'm aware of) costs me $50 for the co-pay. Regular visits are $20 I think, and specialists are $30. Prescriptions are $10.
I am fairly certain my employer has some of the best medical benefits offered to their employees (as far as rates are concerned) based on what I've read so I am probably just very lucky.
My mom has the same healthcare provider but I believe she pays a bit more depending on services. I've seen the behind the scenes costs sometimes, and it can, and often is, absolutely ridiculous.
| couleur wrote: | Everything I don't understand is a mental disorder.  |
| couleur wrote: | | If the illegals are drowning its their fault for attempting to cross the river in the first place. Especially the children. /s |
| russ80 wrote: | | Who cares about gameplay. It's one of the few next-gen looking titles out there so BRING IT ON. |
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 22:41 Post subject: |
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Sure the bills look scary, but 99%+ of them are paid by insurance. Those that aren't paid by insurance you can usually pay off yourself, or negotiate the debt with the hospital. In a lot of cases you can tell the hospital you won't pay, and they will either drop it or give you a steep discount.
The thing that most people don't realize is that insurance pays for 99%+ of medical expenses in America, and each insurance company negotiates deep discounts with each hospital in exchange for annuals fees and some other business perks which I don't understand. Still the hospitals overbill the insurance companies like crazy, because that's the only way they can make money. When you don't have insurance, you get an itemized bill that looks like what it would for an insurance company that didn't negotiate a discount with the hospital. But the hospital realizes that no one can pay $10k+ medical bills, let alone the $250k they would try to bilk out of an insurance company, so they have entire departments devoted to letting people without insurance negotiate their medical bills. In most cases, you can negotiate your bill down to something <$3k, for an original bill of lets say $60k, which would come out to less than if you paid insurance.
The people who got fucked over the most before Obamacare were people with shitty health insurance that paid like $5-20 / month but had some ridiculous deductible (lets say $20k). That means if your insurer got a hospital bill of $250k, they would require you to pay $20k before they would cover the bill. And you can't negotiate with your insurance company the way you can with the hospital, so you would be strapped with the entire $20k in costs and be fucked.
The entire system is vastly more complicated than that (HMO vs PPO, in network doctors, medicare and disability, prescription medications being covered by insurance, Obamacare, liability, medical malpractice insurance etc...), but overall to the average joe I think American medical expenses are on par or lower with the European ones, and the hospitals are quite modern all over the country. It's not what Michael Moore makes it out to be. The biggest problem with American health insurance is the complexity, which causes the crazy edge cases and tragedies you read about in the news.
Sense Amid Madness, Wit Amidst Folly
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| Posted: Wed, 22nd Jan 2014 23:26 Post subject: |
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| Mikey5449 wrote: | I'd have to check my paystub to see what my employer pays for my healthcare but the one time I had to use an ambulance (broke my collar bone, split in two) it cost me $50. Any emergency (that I'm aware of) costs me $50 for the co-pay. Regular visits are $20 I think, and specialists are $30. Prescriptions are $10.
I am fairly certain my employer has some of the best medical benefits offered to their employees (as far as rates are concerned) based on what I've read so I am probably just very lucky.
My mom has the same healthcare provider but I believe she pays a bit more depending on services. I've seen the behind the scenes costs sometimes, and it can, and often is, absolutely ridiculous. |
must be nice. I was paying like 100 bucks out of each paycheck and when I sprained my back they called an ambulance to come get me. After my insurance, I got stuck with a 500 dollar bill, that doesn't include the 1000ish dollar bill I got from going into the emergency room, which all they did was sit me on a bed, prop it up, give me a couple muscle relaxers and let me sit there until my parents came up to get me. |
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Saner
Posts: 6877
Location: Uk
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| Posted: Thu, 23rd Jan 2014 09:33 Post subject: |
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| xDBS wrote: |
Americans aren't inhumane, it's just a corrupt system. |
Try reading, I said I found the American way of dealing with healthcare inhuman.
and I already said why I dont have time for this.
| Quote: | We clearly have vastly different views on this, so we would only be going around in circles.
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I only came back to make sure it was clear I was not saying American are inhuman, for all the pisstaking I do, I didnt want any of the American members here to think I was a complete $"£".
| ragnarus wrote: |
I saw things like that in here and in other "woman problems" topics so...... Am I the only one that thinks some authorities needs to be alerted about Saner and him possibly being a rapist and/or kidnapper ? |
Saner is not being serious. Unless its the subject of Santa! |
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| Posted: Thu, 23rd Jan 2014 11:31 Post subject: |
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talking about healthcare bill , just got my yearly or half yearly contribution bill of 19.50 euros.
Gonna move to freedom of USA where im not forced to pay for insurance.
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