Underworld Ascendant was small team within the same company.
is with, by modern, triple-A standards, a very small team.
Quote:
This referred to their original Boston studio, focused on developing Underworld Ascendant. When Warren Spector joined OtherSide, the developers opened another office in Austin, and according to an administrator in OtherSide’s forums, the System Shock 3 development team is entirely separate from the Underworld Ascendant team, though they “share feedback on occasion.”
SS3 team is completely different with much more people and much higher budget
BTW:
That's more reassuring, though it's difficult to remain optimistic. Let's hope they can manage to pull a miracle here (despite everything ). Classic single player immersive sims sadly are going through a grim phase these days, because of unsatisfactory (well, "unsatisfactory") sales and a gaming environment that's continuously changing for the worse
Deus Ex, Dishonored and Prey are basically dead/on hold indefinitely, Thief was murdered by Th4ef, Ultima committed seppuku because of Ascendant, System Shock 3 is wip but surrounded by many uncertainties, Stalker has a number 2 that's merely a blyat concept, Vampire's future RPG title is in the works but we're in 201X, who knows what it will be like, and so on.
Realistically, there's only the System Shock 1 Remake which is back on track (sort of) after the budget readjustment, the others are either ghosts or big question marks. We need a resurgence, dammit!
I really don't understand why we don't have tons of clones of Thief, System Shock and UUW from indie developers? Just something similar to Thief 1 with better graphics would be amazing, it's not like that game had hundreds of people working on it or even an immensely large budget..
Small but insanely talented team, it might not look much now but the engine was quite a thing for what they used it for and the presentation and style was high-class.
Excellent artistic values and design for what the engine could do, voice acting and even live action and CGI mixed cutscenes.
AI also does not just react on players like a vision cone but also "hears" the player, notices missing objects and reacts to morale or fear among other properties you don't entirely see in games.
(EDIT: The dynamic light gem mechanic and stealth overall really, not easy to accomplish.)
That T4ief got as close to the originals as it could is pretty astounding really for the budget and effort needed for a current-gen variant of these games, publishers wouldn't take that risk and the cost is pretty substantial for a more niche genre.
As I see it at least, trying to copy the game is fine but Unity Engine clunky hallway action/rpg trying to emulate system shock, thief or ultima compared to what the studio did back then is very different.
(The underworld engine was state of the art for a long time for the feature list it had, too demanding hardware wise though and then it got displaced as true 3D geometry and objects, characters and eventually full 3D replaced sprites and 2.5d works although the Dark engine held up well even if it might not have the visual flair of the big games or game engines of the 90's.)
EDIT: Bit like the old System Shock or Resident Evil games being popular targets for horror games striving to be something like these, also a smaller team but a really good one (Team Silent in particular.) but it takes a lot more especially if you try to transition it to modern games and game engines and all that comes with it. Costly as all hell and definitively needing publisher backing financially to pull off properly.
EDIT: Time and effort can work though even if it's a smaller scale, Dark Mod for Doom 3 or more like just the idTech3 engine is a example I would say.
EDIT: Arkane might have a chance perhaps at least for level design but I guess they're stuck doing some online stuff for Bethesda now after Prey and Dishonored.
Things like Constantine's Manor and even the more grounded but sprawling maps from Thief 2 would require a very talented mapper and designer and other skills.
Just a random thought more than anything, I don't think it could quite make the transition to current-gen graphical fidelity and detail and design as-is without some tweaks, changed or outright cuts for these things.
(Clockwork Manor from Dishonored 2 is good though as is the very open ended mission structure and level design for Prey 2017)
I really don't understand why we don't have tons of clones of Thief, System Shock and UUW from indie developers? Just something similar to Thief 1 with better graphics would be amazing, it's not like that game had hundreds of people working on it or even an immensely large budget..
Such games are much more difficult to develop due to more advanced game mechanics, tons of AI-scripting/behavioral stuff, a very talented writer and game designer, a solid team with a solid team leader that can get it done at a high level of quality.
Modern games feel somewhat lazy with simple AI, lackluster story/design and so on while the game itself may LOOK new and shiny with high quality graphics.
Yeah it probably would need something else than Unity, but still.. and yes it does require a lot of talent to pull it off.
How are the Styx games btw, they do seem to resemble the Theif games a bit..?
They try but also cover up a lot via self referential humor and 4th wall leanings though the newest one does handle stealth better and the level design is improving. Big changes since Of Orcs and Men and the first game.
Bigger budget would make a difference but for what they are doing it's a pretty solid title though I am wondering what they could do with the proper funds and time.
Talent is also a factor and if they go up to "AA" or "AAA" style projects it's also important they don't overdo it trying to add everything and anything they come up with, knowing what to cut and what to prioritize and focus on and that little balance act.
It can be done but the usual result is half-assed everything and a sliding release date eventually pushing out some buggy half finished semi-beta title at best with half baked features. Cutting systems and other bits that just won't work is important and a cohesive focused experience for what they do decide to use.
Stealth or combat focus for example, there's a lot of things around both of these so trying to make it all is a huge challenge. Thief lets you fight but it's usually not advisable short of stealthy takedowns and then there's the whole AI routine and all kinds of things around both of these gameplay modes.
Nothing new really but for a smaller studio it would likely be quite overwhelming even if I'd really like to see more games in the vein of these old classics but I am fairly certain it would be almost impossible to pull off outside of a experienced studio with a very unique publisher agreement so they get the time and funds needed while it is targeting a more niche audience and yeah that just isn't very likely to happen without compromises to the games content to push sales and recoup financial expenses so that's a issue too.
Indie? Kickstarter or similar would be difficult and the stretch goal mentality and going above initial expected funding levels can also lead to overreaching for what is realistically possible within whatever time frame you have. Larian, Obsidian and others that have experience with game development and tight budgets from before and harsh deadlines still ran into some complications to use something here as a example.
Surely nothing new though, I just see it as a dream but not very likely to happen even if I would like to see these series continued, rebooted or having spiritual successors in some form but I don't see it happening though I would like to be wrong.
But who knows what T5ief and Underworld Another and so on would be like, we already saw the System Shock reboot fail once due to "Ohh publisher interest." and they totaled the initial solid remake idea they had and almost crashed the project entirely.
EDIT: Hmm I'm going from overtly positive everything to having realistic outlook and expectations for gaming now, that can't be a good sign.
Well some cynicism and negativity so not all bad, then again the industry sure has changed over the years as it turned into this billion dollar industry and now always online and constant stream of content and pushing towards mini purchases and all that.
EDIT: Well I don't have any experience with the industry as such though, a lot of this is mostly from my own kinda narrow view on it as a whole which is somewhat biased I suppose and it's also so filled with secrecy and all kinds of things we regular consumers never get to hear about at all.
The only proper alternative to the good old Thief games indeed is The Dark Mod and its many community missions, I can't think of anything that comes so close to the classic formula mechanically-wise. Dishonored 1 and 2 played in powerless_mode can offer a very good stealth experience as well thanks to the inspired level design and good AI, though the range of movements and actions is more geared towards the dynamic action-y side of things with the player that's given quite a lot of global control/power overall by default.
As far as third-person mission-based (not open world) pure stealth games go the Styx games are pleasantly old-school with complete freedom, challenging AI and more than decent level design. As JB mentioned, there is some junk in the tru-err controls here and there but it's the good type of roughness, so to speak.
Frant wrote:
vurt wrote:
I really don't understand why we don't have tons of clones of Thief, System Shock and UUW from indie developers? Just something similar to Thief 1 with better graphics would be amazing, it's not like that game had hundreds of people working on it or even an immensely large budget..
Such games are much more difficult to develop due to more advanced game mechanics, tons of AI-scripting/behavioral stuff, a very talented writer and game designer, a solid team with a solid team leader that can get it done at a high level of quality.
Modern games feel somewhat lazy with simple AI, lackluster story/design and so on while the game itself may LOOK new and shiny with high quality graphics.
Exactly. And even when we're lucky enough to have the rare combo talent + meaty budget and the miracle happens *points at Arkane (especially Prey)*, both the market and gaming world react in an indifferent way. We can't have nice things
Warren gave a talk at the recent Reboot Develop Blue 2019 conference in Dubrovnik, Croatia, where he shared insights about his writing methods and spoke a little bit about the upcoming System Shock 3.
The industry has changed drastically since Warren Spector first entered it and his insight on the changing landscapes and the way players interact with digital worlds is fascinating. You can read the full interview below.
Quote:
In your talk, you spoke about designing antagonists who are relatable and can give players moments of pause, or even outright agree with them. How do you strike that balance when you’re supposed to be designing a villain?
Warren Spector: Well, that’s the secret sauce. And it’s very hard. The key is that phrase that I put up all around the office; ‘never judge the player,’ it’s a thought process as much as anything else. It’s about slowing the pace down, letting the players actually stop, see a challenge, make a plan, execute the plans, see the consequences. That’s the pacing of my games, okay. And when you have that stop and pause, that’s a moment when you can hear characters talking. You can hear them describing their beliefs, their feelings, what they’re doing. And then the player, not the character, and not me, but the player can decide; ‘hey, what that guy just said, really makes sense.’ You know? That’s one way to do it. The other thing you can do is simply commit to not saying ‘This guy is evil,’ you know? Like, I wish I could talk more about System Shock 3, but one of the things that are really important to me is to give SHODAN, our villain, some real motivation, and in System Shock 1 and System Shock 2, she was just an insane AI; ‘why do I do what I do? Because I am mad, of course.’ And that seems pretty weak. So giving her understandable motivation is still very dangerous. But maybe she makes sense in System Shock 3. It’s the way any author would treat their characters, treat your characters with respect. Don’t paint them in black and white, give players the opportunity to stop and listen or pay attention, or find things in the world that imply motivations on the part of your non-player characters. And then don’t judge. Don’t ever say this is right, this is wrong.
And how do you feel about developing your protagonist? Will it make it harder for the player to project themselves onto the protagonist if the protagonist is already a well defined, developed character?
WS: That is why I never develop my protagonist. It’s important to me that we do not layer on so much backstory and so much character that players can’t inhabit the body of the hero. They have to become the hero – I’m going to choose my words carefully, or I will get myself in trouble. But I don’t find it very interesting, either as a player or as a developer, to manipulate a puppet, I’m not a puppet show guy. We have the opportunity in this medium to let you see the world through your own eyes and interpret what’s happening in the world, using your own brain and making decisions that are logical to you. And so we have to exploit that. And part of that, one of the things that go with that is not saying this is Joe Blow, you know, who’s an ex-CIA agent, he hates the color green, and he shoots first and asks questions later. No. I mean, it’s got to be the player in the body of the hero. And we took that so far, maybe too far, in Deus Ex we actually had to direct the voice actor Jay Franke, that poor guy, who did the voice of JC Denton, we actually had to tell him: ‘no emotion in your voice, no inflection, nothing,’ which is why JC Denton [adopts monotone voice] talks like this. And he never shows any emotion because he just started, he doesn’t mumble, but he just talks monotone. And it was because we never knew what the player was going to be doing specifically. And we couldn’t predict whether the player was going to be happy, or sad, or scared, or angry. And there’s nothing worse in terms of pulling people out of the experience than the player being angry and upset and adrenalized, and then the character says; [adopts high-pitched “Mickey Mouse voice] ‘Hey, nice to meetcha!’ So we had to keep the inflection at a minimum in the voiceover. That’s how far we were willing to go to ensure that the players inhabited the body of the character.
How long have you been working on System Shock 3 now?
WS: A while, that’s for sure. It started out as just me, you know, writing up a bunch of docs, that was about two years ago. And then I brought on my leads, art director, design director, tech director, and then later on a producer, and we sat at my house (one of my houses, I own three houses with a library, and a gallery, and a house I live in). The library had enough space that we set up shop there. And we did some really quick prototyping and wrote a bunch more docs. That was about nine months in, and then we started growing and really entered pre-production. Yeah, so how long we’re working on System Shock 3, that’s about two years. But, really working on the game? No, no, no. Probably about a year, a little more.
When you finished up System Shock all those years ago, did you have plans for a sequel?
WS: Honestly, I was kind of ready to move on to something else at that point. Yeah. So I didn’t really think much about it. I thought we had dealt with SHODAN. But I just want to make a game, finish it, and let players move on to the next one. But that’s not the world we live in anymore. So I wish I had a longer cooler answer. But no, honestly, I wasn’t thinking about System Shock 2 at the time.
To finish up, is there anything that you can tell me about System Shock 3?
WS: Okay. Hear me choose my words carefully. It won’t require prior knowledge of the earlier System Shock games, because we want to grow the audience beyond just the core fans. But if you are a fan of the original games, there’ll be some things in there that I think you’ll find appealing. There were some survivors in the first two games that we don’t talk about too much. So maybe we’ll learn what happened to them. SHODAN is coming back, of course, but this time we’re going to kind of make her a complete character, with believable motivations. And you’ll see her change and grow over time in logical ways. Citadel Station is going to come back from the first game, except maybe not in the way people expect. We’re going to continue to try to capture the vibe, the combination of the shooter with light role-playing and survival horror, and stick with that. Going to tell a story in that traditional System Shock way where there are no living characters, and you have to piece what happened and what you need to do together from video logs and emails and messages from some folks off-site, just like the original. Beyond that, I should probably not say anything.
Why do people need to project themselves into the story in order to have a good time? For the lack of a more delicate expression, fucking losers. What we get is a terrible protagonist who's too brain damaged to say a word, and a story which might not recognize his existence in an organic way. Yes, a bad game with possibly terrific gameplay.
I have no bigger problems projecting myself into stories that i read or watch, or play. Even if the protagonist is someone very unlike myself (sex, race, age).
It's down to the story a lot, as long as you can immerse yourself in it then you will automatically connect to the characters. What's interesting with a set protagonist is perhaps just that, that its possible to see the world and a story unfold from the perspective of someone entirely different than yourself.
Haven't really thought too much about it for System Shock though.. With the "insert yourself into this empty and anonymous shell of a character" the developer frees themselves up a lot, that's for sure..
TWIN PEAKS is "something of a miracle."
"...like nothing else on television."
"a phenomenon."
"A tangled tale of sex, violence, power, junk food..."
"Like Nothing On Earth"
The tone itself doesn't seem to be off-putting, but it's difficult to judge at this stage. Just like with Bloodlines 2, I'm keeping an open mind while also running the safe pessimist_mode in the background, best way to avoid disappointments during the future isoride.
For some reason that trailer gave me Doom 3 vibes. Also with all the lighting and stuff, I wouldn't be surprise if it supported Ray Tracing, seems like a good setting for this.
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Trailer was nice for being pre-alpha. It reminded me of SS2, Doom 3 and the original Prey from 2006. If they can get the atmosphere right which requires Eric Brosius to do the music I'll be very content. His music added sooooo much to SS2.
The album is free to download as FLAC (and it's worth it if you liked SS2 as well as the dark ambient electrophonic music that added so much atmosphere to the game):
https://archive.org/details/SystemShock2SoundtrackFLAC
It's his wife? Cool, had no idea.. yeah i really like his music too, can't really see myself playing SS2 without the music, it's such an integral part of the experience.
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). Classic single player immersive sims sadly are going through a grim phase these days, because of unsatisfactory (well, "unsatisfactory") sales and a gaming environment that's continuously changing for the worse 
